Episode 40: Confidence Takes Time: Courn Ahn on Disability, Identity, and Belonging

Episode 40 Show Notes

Courn Ahn is a designer, content creator, and advocate who cares deeply about accessibility and social justice. Their work focuses on helping people see disability, identity, and community support in a new way, especially through the lens of queerness, race, and being neurodivergent.

As a Queer, nonbinary, mixed-race Korean creative, Courn shares from personal experience and speaks honestly about the challenges that come with being disabled in a world full of assumptions. Courn's journey has been about unlearning shame, accepting who they are, and understanding that using visible accommodations isn’t something to hide, it’s a powerful way to take care of yourself.

Courn also talks about how people often assume you don’t need help if you look like you’re doing well, and how sharing online as a disabled person can be both meaningful and exhausting. Through their design work and presence on social media, Courn is not just creating content, Courn Ahn is also  creating space for real conversations, celebrating differences, and reminding us that accessibility should matter to everyone.

Connect with Courn Ahn on LinkedIn, Instagram, and their website.

Transcript

Lily Newton:
Hey, listeners, and welcome to another episode of Everything You Know About Disability is Wrong. Today on the show, we have Courn on.

Erin Hawley:
Courn is a multidisciplinary designer with over five years in the creative industry. As a designer and content creator, Courn offers accessible design services to marginalized and small businesses. They also create educational artwork and resources in support of social justice.

Lily Newton:
Welcome to the show, Courn. We're so happy to have you here.

Courn Ahn:
Hi. It's such an honor and pleasure to be here with you all. I'm so excited.

Lily Newton:
Yeah. This is gonna be such a great episode. I am such a fan of your work. And, before we get into the questions, let's go ahead and do our audio descriptions. Erin, do you wanna start us off?

Erin Hawley:
Yes. Sure. Hi. I'm Erin speaking. I have red hair and I have a pink flower shirt on and I'm sitting in my bedroom.

Lily Newton:
Awesome. And this is Lily speaking. I have half blonde, half brown hair. I am a mixed race white presenting woman with green eyes, and my hair is split down the middle like Cruella de Vil. I'm wearing my usual black turtleneck and a necklace that I will fidget with throughout the entire episode. And behind me, I have some great disability related books, a bunch of my stim toys, and actually some artwork by Courn, so it's pretty fitting. I mean, Courn, you can go ahead.

Courn Ahn:
Hi. My name is Courn. I'm a non binary Korean and mixed race white person. I have a pink mullet. I'm wearing a brown button up over a pink and blue long sleeve, and I am sitting in my bedroom, very brightly colored pink background, and my dog is peeking just out in the corner, and they may be during the entire of this recording.

Lily Newton:
All pets always welcome in the background of our show.

Erin Hawley:
Love that. So, Courn, the first question we always ask is, well, the name of our podcast is everything you know about disability is wrong. And you wanna know, what do people get wrong about you?

Courn Ahn:
Of course. I'd say when people see someone like me who has low support needs as an autistic person and appears to be thriving in certain areas of my life that they kind of wrongly assume that applies to all aspects of my life. It doesn't. My skill profile is incredibly spiky. I can run a successful design business, but I can't prepare my own food. I can post daily social media content, but I struggle with my own hygiene. I can paint a whole room in a day, but I can't walk longer than thirty minutes. I I have a partner who effectively is a caretaker in many ways.

You know, I've always relied on systems and accommodations to make daily tasks feasible long before I had the language to describe what I was doing. And, you know, these hardships are only compounded for medium and high support need folks who potentially can't work, use alternative communication devices, you know, need full time caretakers, and have compounding disabilities. You know, too low too low of supports, and you're just being dramatic, too high of supports, and you're not worthy of agency.

Lily Newton:
What just, like, a well said answer that was. I really like the use of spiky to describe, like, different access needs as I totally relate. And I I do think that is a very common misconception is, like, what I see is what I should assume about this person, which is never the case. And, yeah, I think that that makes a lot of sense that people would make assumptions, especially when it comes to social media because we know social media doesn't show the full picture. Yeah. For some reason, I know as an autistic creator as well, there is something about, like, any kind of regularity on social media that makes people then hop in my DMs and be like, well, you don't seem like you actually have any support needs. And every time, I'm like, well, tell that to my fiancee who's also my caretaker who makes every single meal that I eat because I won't eat otherwise. Like

Courn Ahn:
so. The biggest same. I think it's hard just being on social media because I think a lot of people I mean, just see a highlight reel of your life. And I don't personally share all my hardships, I share some of them, but I'm not gonna share every meltdown and shutdown I have to everybody. That's an invasion of my privacy, and people assume that they don't see that. It doesn't happen. It does.

Lily Newton:
I'm glad you say that too because you have a right to that privacy. And I feel like sometimes, especially, like, I'm just getting started kind of posting regularly online and being open as a disabled content creator, and there is a level of pressure to, like, get rid of all of my privacy and be like, see, look at me messing up here. Look at this. And, I think it's so important to just be reminded that, like, we as disabled people don't owe the public our stories. We can share whatever we'd like to share and give whatever context we'd like to give.

Courn Ahn:
Very much so.

Erin Hawley:
Yeah. There's, like, this idea that because you post on social media that you have to share everything. And I do think a lot of content creators that I've seen. Some do, I think, overshare, especially with children. Kids are involved. And then it builds this, like, idea that everyone should be that open and that that way that it's just not healthy. I think for, like, content creators to not have that privacy.

Lily Newton:
Yeah. You absolutely have to draw your own boundaries and be like, okay. What makes me comfortable? And I think that that's yeah. I certainly see, especially with kids online, I see profiles where I'm like, oh, I don't know if you're gonna want that on the Internet in a few years. But, you know, it's it can be a double edged sword because, one thing about social media is it is a really great option for disabled people who want to take, like, their career into their own hands. And I know that I have some autistic friends who are also content creators, and they aren't able to work a full time job, and social media functions as that kind of job that they can use. So it feels like they need to be sharing a ton because that's their livelihood, but then at the same time, you're right, it kind of sets up these expectations for what people are willing to share online. Boundaries.

They're always important and always difficult. All the boundaries. Yeah. Speaking of social media, you recently collaborated with us and Easterseals, on a really awesome video. Listeners, if you haven't seen it, go check out Courn's profile and look at it, because we made a really incredible video talking about acceptance. And, for any of our listeners who might be new to your content, can you share your experience of understanding your disabilities and accepting and accommodating your needs?

Courn Ahn:
Totally. So around five years ago, I was probably in one of the roughest patches of burnout I had ever experienced in my life. I just quit my job. I had been diagnosed with severe depression and was on all these meds, but it didn't matter if I worked less. I took more breaks. I did x, y, or z. I was majorly struggling with everything. And around a year after that, I was still not doing super well, but my therapist kind of broke the news to me that I might be autistic and have ADHD.

And that essentially nothing would change if I didn't start reducing the triggers related to my disabilities. But I didn't really believe it for a year because that's how people are. It probably wasn't until 2022 that I started accepting this. Actually made significant changes in my life. But the thing is I had already been making so many elaborate systems and accommodations in my daily life, like eating the same meals every day, planning my day minute by minute on my calendar, avoiding overstimulating places, but, like, I just had all the shame around it. I genuinely didn't let anyone in my life know that I was doing all these things besides my partner. It was kind of this big secret I was keeping. And when I realized that I wasn't being overdramatic, that I was just disabled, I realized all these things were vital to my well-being and not optional.

And it really allowed me to approach my supports with so much more kindness, actually use all of them all the time and not feel shame around it. And that acceptance has really created a framework in me that has pushed me to accept a new accommodations as they come come up. Like, now I'm using a cane for my mobility issues.

Lily Newton:
I love that journey you went on, and I really like that you said that your therapist pointed out that nothing will change until you start identifying those triggers. I had a similar experience with one of our podcast guests that we had on. We had Lauren Melissa Elsey, who's an awesome autistic author on, and I was asking her some questions about, meltdowns in general. And she made a very similar point, and I thought to myself, wow. That it's it feels so easy that, like, your meltdowns are not gonna stop until you identify the triggers causing them. But until someone had said it explicit me explicitly to me, I didn't really think that was an option. So I'm I'm glad you had that therapist who was like, you gotta take care of yourself, and, I think there will be a lot of listeners who will relate to the year of not really accepting because I think that it, whether it's physical or cognitive disability, that's a common thread, I think, in a lot of people's acceptance journeys is giving yourself the time to grieve maybe what you thought your life was gonna look like and then accept what your life can look like. And I I like that you brought up shame as well because I think that shame contributes to burnout so much.

Like, shame in itself is an exhausting emotion.

Courn Ahn:
Oh, for sure.

Lily Newton:
Like, just so exhausting. So if you're if you're trying to get out of burnout and you're ashamed that you're in burnout, it really is a self fulfilling prophecy, and I have definitely been there. I'm glad you've learned learned to approach your accommodations with kindness and acceptance. Do you have any, like, accommodations that you've added into your life recently?

Courn Ahn:
That's kind of a tough one because I think I've been kind of on it for the past couple of years. I think what I mentioned recently was using the cane. I've had a lot of mobility issues flare up from long COVID and other chronic stuff from having hypermobile EDS that's been flaring up in the past few months. So I got a shower chair. Like, I'm just doing a lot more, like, I've been doing strength training around my joints and things, just being a lot more cognizant of my body's limits. I used to just do these, like, pretty much all week things where I would DIY the entire house and do all this, like, big hyperfixation on updating a whole room, and I have to be a lot more realistic and take it slower so I'm not just, like, recovering for a month after and unable to work or do anything. So I think for me, the physical accommodations was something that's a bit new to me, and it's take took me a bit more time to get used to.

Lily Newton:
The shower chair is such an important one. My shower has, like, a kind of built in bench in it, so I got that that accommodation without realizing what I was doing. And it makes such a big difference, and it's totally something that could have shame, but there's no reason for it too. And, like, once once I've started letting myself sit down in the shower, showering is so much easier for me, and that's the point.

Courn Ahn:
Literally. It just felt very silly to me that I would just be like, man, I just I can't take a shower longer than two minutes because I'm just having a really hard time standing in there, and it was just like, get a get a shower chair. Someone told me that, and I was like, oh. And that was it, and I just haven't had a problem with it since. And I'm just like, some of the accommodations are a lot bigger than that, but something like that just feels, like, so silly to me that all it took was just a small tap, small step to buy that. And, of course, it's probably just be able to buy those items as well. But still, like, for me, it was just like, oh, I just went out and got one. Now my life is substantially better.

Lily Newton:
Yeah. It really can be a tiny step. I'm looking at I I have a lot of, joint pain in my hands because of hypermobile EDS, and so I just got these tubes that I put on my pen so it makes them thicker, and it doesn't hurt for me to write with. If you're listening or unable to see the screen, I'm holding up a pen that has, like, a foam yellow tube around it. And it's it's just a foam tube. Like, it's that's all it is, but it's made my life so much better because my hands don't hurt when I write. And I think, you know, you mentioned feeling silly or in a earlier answer, you said that feeling of, you know, I'm not just dramatic. I'm disabled.

And I think those feelings all kind of live in the same world that, like, judging these small changes. But when you let go of that judgment, it's wonderful to be comfortable.

Courn Ahn:
Truly. And it's not silly if it works. Like, nondisabled people don't usually benefit from stuff like that. So if it helps you, use it. There's no shame around that.

Lily Newton:
Absolutely. It's not silly if it works. That is a phrase to keep.

Erin Hawley:
Yes. And, like, you know those those, commercials that's, like, as seen on TV, and they have these different devices, like, to help somebody chop up onions or just handle things easier. And I see a lot of people say, oh, it's so silly. Why do you have to have that? But these devices were made with disabled people in mind, and they're not some silly device. I wanna share I did recently buy glasses that are called, what's it called? Lazy reader glasses. And what it does is you put them on, obviously. And, it makes it forces you to look down, like straight down at a 90 degree angle. And for me, that means I can now write because I can't reach that far, and I can't therefore reach a piece of paper.

And I can't see what I'm writing because I can't look straight down. So now I can. And it's like changed my life. I haven't been able to write in over ten years. And I love stationery. I love journals. And now I can do it again. And I'm so happy.

Lily Newton:
That's so incredible. I'm really happy you did that.

Courn Ahn:
No. That's such a good point about people thinking that stuff is silly when it's actually such vital life saving accommodations for people. Because I feel that same way about that clicker. People like, oh, that scroller for TikTok that automatically just scrolls through videos. They're like, oh, that's silly that someone would need that. And it's like, no. That's actually a wonderful accommodation for disabled people.

Erin Hawley:
Exactly. And the glasses do look a little silly because it's like wearing prisms on your face. But it it's it's just life changing, and I don't care how it looks.

Lily Newton:
Yeah. You get to do what you love to do. Who cares? And that's that's so wonder I'm so glad you did that, Erin. That's really exciting, and I'm glad you shared that with us because even just hearing and seeing your face as you said that, I think really takes home the full idea of what we've been doing talking about acceptance in general. It's like, you get to do something you love and you're happy and excited about it. That is beautiful, and that is the benefit of acceptance and understanding your needs. I think that's amazing. And and I'll also say on the note of, the products that people are like, who would need that? Why would they do that? Blah blah blah.

It always cracks me up because it's like, yeah. This is made with disabled people in mind. The reason it's being sold to the masses is because of the curb cut effect. Like, oftentimes, things that make life easier for disabled people do make lives easier for nondisabled people as well. Like, we have a chopper that you put an onion in, and then you go like this, and it chops down. And, you know, I am sure that that was designed with access in mind, but it also just makes it faster. So that's lovely. And so that's, just kind of the point I wanted to make there where if something's being marketed to the masses and you maybe don't realize that that was designed with disability in mind, it's because universal design is awesome.

Like, that's what you're seeing the effects of.

Courn Ahn:
Not so hot take, but accessible design literally benefits everyone.

Lily Newton:
Literally. And and, yeah, not so hot take, but weirdly is a hot take when you're talking to people who are designing things. And it's so much easier to create accessible design when accessibility and ease and disability are words that are in the room from the beginning of whatever you're designing. It becomes much harder when years after you've designed something, you're like, oh, what if we make this available for everyone? Just start with access. Well, this is kind of a shift in topic, but I love your style so I have to ask about this. You have a very distinct and recognizable both artistic style and interior design style. Listeners who have not seen Courn's profile, they have, like, gorgeous bright colors and pastel colors. It's just it's it's beautiful, and I'll let Courn describe it themself.

But for any my question there is for any young creatives who are currently finding their aesthetic, do you have any advice or anecdotes about discovering your own personal brand?

Courn Ahn:
Well, thank you. First of all, but, oh, gosh. This is a really hard one. Like, I think in a sea of so much art and inspiration online, I think it's almost impossible, like, to not compare yourself to others, like, to not be influenced by what's trending and what's not. But I think for me, as someone who largely just copied the interests of those around me to fit in growing up, very autistic of me, it took me a while to actually figure out what my own preferences even were as an artist. Like, I think probably the most helpful thing was looking back at what resonated with me as a kid, actually. Like, I loved pink. I loved color.

I loved everything fun and whimsical. And it was all the things that peers in society made me sort of feel embarrassed about as I grew up, and I largely just pushed to the side as a result. Finding my artistic style as an adult has largely just been rediscovering that love I had in the first place. And, obviously, you know, our tastes change and develop over time, but I'm always asking myself, like, if no one else in the world could see this, would I still proudly hold on to it? And that's kind of my philosophy for my art, decor, and really everything, which I like to call pastel maximalism, but people like to put their own words on that. Toddler chic is also another thing I hear a lot. I don't know if that's a compliment, but I'll take it.

Lily Newton:
I think pastel maximalism just fits a lot better. But, you know, I think that it's it's interesting that so often, those of us with very distinct personal brands who happen to be autistic do tend to get that, like, childlike or youth label. And I think that there's, you know, two ways to view it. One is the, like, infantilization is such a huge part of the ableism autistic people tend to face. But then the other is exactly what you said of, well, yeah, you reconnected with who you were as a child and what you liked. And there is something so authentic about the stuff we loved when we were kids before the world told us what was, like, cool to, like, and what wasn't. And I I deeply relate to that feeling of, like, when you don't get diagnosed as autistic in your youth, and then at some point you realize you are. And there's this level of, like, okay.

But, uh-oh, what if everything I like is just a conglomeration of who I've built, like, because I was trying to be something? So I love that you took the time to get to know yourself again. And clearly, it was a fruitful endeavor because your art, your interior design, it's all amazing. I just watched your whole well, the two videos where you were deciding what you were going to do and then actually painting the background for your Spice Village set. I watched that, and I was just like, that is so exciting. Like, I know my inner child would just be giddy walking past that.

Courn Ahn:
I appreciate that so much. I also just don't know when it became not cool to like color and fun things or, like, liking the same things you liked in childhood. Like, the reason why things are special interests or even just lifelong interests in general, like, we don't grow out of things like liking things. Like, that's normal to like the things you liked as a child. Like, I just I don't think it's that hard of a take. Like, I think people find it very odd for me to like so much of the things I did as a kid. And of course, I'm autistic. I carry a lot of things that I liked as a child, but also, who cares? Disability or not, like, we're allowed to like whatever we like as long as it's not hurting anyone, you know, within reason.

Lily Newton:
Absolutely. And, I mean, this could be an entire episode topic, but there is something along the way of, like, I think the way that we really judge kids is deeply rooted in ableism. Like, there's there's just so much about the way we write off the way kids feel that parallels so much the way that society tends to write off what disabled people are saying. And there's something about, you know, the interconnectedness and need for support that both children and disabled people share that can get looked down upon, but I actually think is, like, the core of humanity is being there for each other and taking care of ourselves and each other. So I I think that's just an important thing to let go of if you're a listener and you're like, I don't wanna do this because it feels childlike. Let it go. Children are cool. Like, be childlike.

I love I have four nieces and nephews, and they're, like, the coolest people I know. They just act on impulse, and it's so beautiful. So, yeah, I I I relate, and I think that your style is, creative and not I don't think it needs to be infantilized. I think anyone at any age can love bright things, which I agree that in a world of, what I think TikTok has coined as millennial gray, it can feel bold to have a pink wall, but you can have a pink wall.

Courn Ahn:
Now it's millennial green. The times are changing.

Lily Newton:
You're right. And I saw TikTok about that. That was like, wait. So now green is a neutral, and it was someone's house that was, like, all green? But, again, trends, whatever. You don't have to fit. Actually, Erin, the first time I walked into your bedroom was a healing moment for my, like, inner teen because your bedroom feels like a like a princess tower and surround there's books. Like, there's an entire wall corner of books, and they're all, like, awesome fantasy books. And then there's a canopy bed.

When I walked in, I was like, oh my gosh. This just feels wonderful. And as soon as I got home from the first time I visited you, Erin, I, like, put more of my books up on the wall. I was like, yeah. This is my interest. I want everyone to know this.

Erin Hawley:
Yeah. It's like people who come in, they're like, oh, you like to read. Yeah. But yeah. I just love, like, using interior design to showcase your personality. I think that's so powerful because for me, it's kind of like I'm using it because I love it, first of all. And also, it makes me feel like I'm showing people who I really am when people make assumptions about me that are incorrect. It's like it's also kind of not I have tattoos as well, and part of me getting them was showing people, like, I'm not a child.

I don't do things just to prove a point, but it just it's a it's a expression of my personality in a way that I can control.

Courn Ahn:
I love that. I feel very similarly about my spaces. I just feel such a great amount of pride being able to decorate them and surround them with things that feel like me. I feel like the kindest compliment I ever get. Some people walk into my house and they're like, wow. This feels like you in house form. And I'm like, that's exactly what I was going for. Like, I live here.

I want it to look like I live here. I don't wanna look like I just went to, you know, and just bought a normal house and just living in it and anyone can live there. No.

Lily Newton:
And listening to what you both just said, I feel like there is something there connected to what we were talking about with acceptance. There's this level of, like, no. I'm not just gonna live what's expected of me. I'm not just gonna live this life that looks like out of the box. I'm going to change what I need to make myself enjoy myself or to enjoy my time. Like, I think that that is really beautiful and, you know, I I get what you're saying, Erin, of the, like, I don't wanna just, you know, do stuff to prove a point. But it's not necessarily to prove a point as much as it is, like, the importance of self expression as disabled people because so many people view disability as just, like, a bunch of assumptions or they think that all disabled people are the same, which couldn't be more further from the truth. So there's something really powerful in saying, like, this is me.

This is me specifically, And I happen to, relate on certain things with other people, but this is me. And, like, I think there's power in that acceptance journey as well getting to the point where you're like, no. I I know myself. I understand myself, and I accept myself. So I'm going to give myself what I want because I know it's what's best for me. Absolutely.

Courn Ahn:
Especially a note on the tattoo thing because I feel that way similarly because I have a lot of tattoos and people always bring it up. They're just like, oh, that must be, like, so hard for you. Like, I can't imagine an autistic person would have tattoos or people assume I'm, like, 17 or 18 and then they like see all my tattoos like, you must be like 30 and I'm like, pretty much. Yeah. I'm an adult. I know that I dress colorful and live in a very whimsical space but yeah, I can have tattoos and it's always just a a big topic of contention for disabled people when we have these methods of self expression that, like, go against what people expect of us to look like and have.

Erin Hawley:
Totally. Yeah. I did notice after I got tattoos that people stopped asking for my ID when I went to get a drink. So it's like, there we go. Problem solved.

Lily Newton:
That is a good problem solver. Yeah. I feel similarly. I I love my tattoos. Like, it it it is such a nice, I'm that's something I'm really glad that is not as much taboo right now as it used to be. Like, I don't I would think it was absolutely wild that if an employer had a problem with tattoos in 2025 like that. So there's something really I'm happy we're in that age of self expression. And, and I'm glad that all three of us took the time to, you know, curate a space that is our desire.

Because in the world of social media, it can feel very easy to create, like, an aesthetic online or an aesthetic for what your videos look like. But I think that, you know, while that's cool and awesome and good to do for your following, I think it's worth it to pursue your aesthetic in your actual environment in the real world, because that's very affirming. And I think we all need some affirmation. Before we move on from that, I just wanna follow-up. Is there were there any times that you when you were kind of rediscovering what you liked, did you have the experience of something that you, like, swore that you like to do that then you started to kind of identify and were like, wait. I actually don't even know if I like because I had that experience a lot. So that's why I ask.

Courn Ahn:
Yes. This is kind of odd, but I was really into basketball growing up. Not because I liked basketball, but because I had two older brothers, and I wanted to seem desirable to other people at school. So I got really into basketball. Like, I hyperfixate on it. I was super into stats. I had posters of Jermaine O'Neil in my room who isn't even a good like, a really redeemable basketball player, but I just thought it'd make me cool. And as soon as I got to college, I was like, you know what? I don't actually like basketball. I hate organized sports. I don't like this at all. I don't like playing or watching it. And it was so silly because I'll still see people from my past. Like, you still really do basketball? And I'm like, no.

Lily Newton:
Yeah. It's such a funny experience and goes into that like, oh, wait. Who actually am I? Because I I certainly had that experience with, like, even foods I would eat that I would regularly eat because it was, like, normal to eat that I had normal, quote, unquote, that I eventually was like, wait. I don't think I like that actually. Like and, that's funny. I think what a so autistic experience to be like, oh, I think I should like this, so I'm gonna go all the way in and know everything about it. That's so funny to me. So shifting gears a little to a very important topic I want to cover.

One reason I really love your work so much is that you really center intersectionality, Whether we're talking about the work you're doing, like creating artwork for people or just the content you make on a daily basis, you really focus on intersectionality. And I understand why I love that and that's important to me, but I'd love for you to share with our listeners why that's so important to you as an artist, creative, and content creator.

Courn Ahn:
Totally. Well, I kinda think the real question, like, why isn't it important to everyone? Like, I'm certainly not the first to speak on the importance of intersectionality in disabled spaces, and I certainly won't be the last. But for me, just as a multiply marginalized person, like, I don't have an option to not have my work revolve around intersectionality. Like, that is my experience. I'm trans. I'm queer. I'm Asian. I'm disabled.

And even though I'm marginalized in some ways, I still have plenty of privileges in others, but my personal experience directly informs my work. Like, I wish that was a normalized thing. Like, why aren't we prioritizing intersectionality it have to be this thing that we have to call out as being a good example when it should just be the default?

Lily Newton:
Totally. And I think it goes into what I was saying earlier about people, like, thinking disabled people are just like a box of assumptions. And there is something about, like, intersectionality brings humanity to the forefront. Like, it's, it for me personally, I think when I compartmentalize myself or try to view myself as just one of my identities, it really cuts off my full connection to, like, my soul of who I am. And I I didn't actually realize that until, I my therapist called me out on it and was kind of like, you know, you in your advocacy work, you really lean into your disabled identity. And I host a queer comedy show, so there I feel very connected to my queer identity. And then, like, I feel very connected to my mixed race identity when I'm in certain rooms, but I don't always bring it up. And it was my therapist calling me out and being like, hey.

You're not a queer artist, a disabled artist, and a South Asian artist. You are a queer, disabled, South Asian artist. And I was like, you're so right. And and once she said that, it really became like, oh, actually, none can exist without the other. Like, they they're all me, and it's super duper important. And, like, even when it comes to talking about disability, I find myself, I I don't love when there's a situation when I'm talking about being autistic and I don't bring up having EDS because having EDS is such a major part of my autistic experience. And, Erin, I know we've had so many conversations about, like, how people tend to kind of write off your anxiety because it feels like a, like, lesser disability, but both are part of you. And I think that that is I don't know.

There's just something really important about honoring your full self and that I completely agree. Why isn't intersectionality the default?

Courn Ahn:
Yeah. And I and I still, like, wanna pay attention to that it's not in so many spaces. Like, I think that's also for me why I felt such a need to put that at the forefront of my work. It's like I worked in design studios for years, and I hated it. It was super. Just like white cis male. All the work we did, none of it was intersectional, and it just sucked. Like, I just was like, man, I can't do any of this industry.

Like, I'm just gonna have to do it on my own because I just can't find these spaces, so I'll I'll have to make them for myself, and then maybe they'll be more normal.

Lily Newton:
Speak on that. I can't find the spaces where I can bring my full self, so I'll just have to create them. That is, like, the mindset that I wish I hope this podcast can infuse in all of our listeners because I think that's exactly what Aaron and I were thinking when we decided we wanted to make this podcast was like, man, I don't wanna just be seen as, like, a disabled token being paraded around different podcasts. I want a space where disability is one aspect of just us being humans. So I really I really appreciate you saying that. And if you're listening and you're like, oh, maybe I wanna create a space, do it. Do it. Let this be the sign.

Create spaces and online communities and in person spaces where you can bring your full self. Because if you can show up as your full self, other people can show up as their full selves.

Erin Hawley:
So there's room for everybody, and don't ever think you are taking up space. You are taking up space. That's fine. Everyone's in space together.

Courn Ahn:
Agree. I also just wanted to add to that you don't have to reinvent the wheel or do the super daunting thing of creating a space either. Like, so many of these spaces already exist. I don't think people realize that there are so many rich communities of people already doing this work. Like, there's already so many organizations and mutual aid out there waiting for you to find them. You just have to find them and look for them. But they exist, like, you know, there's spaces in every single city no matter how, you know, small and siloed you think the city is. Like, I find that there's these advocacy groups just everywhere.

Lily Newton:
Oh, that's such a good point. Thank you for saying that. Yeah. Like, the the work is being done even when it doesn't feel like it is, especially in disabled communities, like, where, like, even if you don't necessarily want to be an advocate or an activist as a disabled person, often just speaking up for your own needs puts you in the spot of advocacy. So, like, there are so many people, so many just really cool disabled people that have created, like, both in person and online community. So thank you for saying that, Courn, because that's absolutely right.

Courn Ahn:
Like I just want to add too that I think it's a very normal response, I think, for a lot of white people too to kind of hear when there's a something that a space is lacking that they're very put to be like, I am the solution. I'm going to solve this problem, when respectfully a lot of marginalized people of color have been already doing that work and just not getting recognition for it. So I think it's always important to be like, is there already a solution to this instead of just jumping straight into, I'm gonna create this. Like, look around and see who else is doing the work and how you can uplift them. Because very rarely is there ever, like, no one doing that work. Like, I think it's important to not just be like, oh, I am the solution. Like, community is the solution, and it's already been there.

Lily Newton:
Yes. Absolutely. And, like, you can bring your small community to bigger communities and or you can bring a bigger community to a smaller community. Like, there's, like Erin said, there's space for everything. But, yeah, I think that's a really good point because especially when it comes to disability topics where, sometimes these things that disabled people have been speaking on for a long time, especially black and brown disabled people have been speaking on for a very long time, get, like, mainstreamed for the first time. And that's where you get the kind of, like, savior concept and of, like, oh, I can fix this. But, like, one of one of, I think, the great disability leaders of our or disabled leaders of our time is Emani Barbarin. Like, I I'm obsessed with her TikTok, and she's always saying that.

Like, we've been talking about this. You just weren't listening. And I think that that's super important. And, also, like, it's okay if you didn't know. It's okay. Like, there's no again, shame is an exhausting emotion. We're not saying feel shame. We're just saying, like, take a step back.

Look at what's being done. Support where you can. And, also, find the people that are close to you that you can, like, do this work or seek out this work with together. It doesn't have to be something you do alone. Okay. Speaking of intersectionality, I this is a very, like, me personal question I have for you because, I've seen you get comments similar to comments I have received on my TikTok where anytime you're talking about your Korean identity, people tend to invalidate it because you are white. And as a white skinned person who is from a non white community, I definitely relate. And there's something really weird is the only word I can think of of, like, what it does to your self identity when other people are trying to invalidate who you are.

So, just because I connect on that experience and it's it's been really helpful for me to see your content, I'd love to share more of it on this. What is your experience with that type of invalidation and the impacts that that can have?

Courn Ahn:
Absolutely. Like, just since being more chronically online, I just get a lot of comments that I'm not Korean because either I look too white or I didn't grow up in Korea. And I'm really quick to push back on this because our cultural identity is much more than how we look or where we grew up, which also have an influence. But it's who we are, who our ancestors are, quite literally. And I also find it funny because I look Korean, but I also look white. Like, that's how being mixed works. Yes. It's important to mention that I have privileges as a more white presenting Asian person, and I prefer the term white presenting over white passing.

But that doesn't mean I'm not Korean. Like, my dad immigrated here. I'm half Korean. And I think that this invalidation is, number one, really harmful on mixed kids because it causes so much shame around the more marginalized identity, a feeling of being, like, an imposter and never being blank enough. But two, it also almost centers around whiteness as the default. Like, that is the baseline to be compared to, the standard. Like, yes, there are times when it's valid to bring up that mixed race kids may experience privileges due to their proximity to whiteness, but that is compared to other people of color, not white people. And, honestly, I only ever get these comments from white people, which is always just such a big red flag to me.

Like, what is the motivation? What's the power dynamic? Like, who serves to benefit from this conversation? It's not me. That's all I could say.

Lily Newton:
Yeah. And I, I think that's interesting, the, white presenting versus white passing. I I also like that one. This this is language that I've, like, really heavily kind of thought about just because, yeah, people have opinions on it. And, I think I need to take a page out of your book to just be like, that's a red flag that this person has an opinion on it. I don't actually need to let that opinion weigh on me. Because I had a experience with some of my friends recently where I used the term white passing, and I happened to be with three of my white friends. And they looked at me, and they're and these were three friends that I grew up with.

And they were like, hey. Are we allowed to say that's not true? Like, you look Indian. You've always looked Indian. And I was like, oh, yeah. You're I mean, I do. I look Indian and white because my mom's Indian and my dad's white. That's how that works.

Courn Ahn:
Yes.

Lily Newton:
But, you know, we're still I think the mixed race experience is still just pretty unknown. Like, we're only a couple generations if if two generations out from mixed race marriages being legal in this country. So, like, I think that there's a lot of room to share those experiences, and, I think I will also adopt that presenting versus passing because passing feels like I'm doing something sneakily, and I'm not try I'm not. Like, when I

Courn Ahn:
There's also just a history there. Like, to be white passing has very much history in Black history, Black culture of passing for your own safety. Like, it's not something people chose to do with something they had to do for their own safety. And I also think it just minimizes that a lot of people that they say are white passing just absolutely aren't. Like, people honestly just don't know what people of color look like. And I will say this time and time again because I will have white people tell me that I look white passing and then proceeded, like, not be able to tell the difference between any Asian actor. Like, they can't tell the difference between a Korean person versus a Japanese person when it's very obvious to me. So it's just, like, I've never once ever passed as being full white when I was growing up.

So it's very new to me as well. Like, I think a lot of it also has to do with biases. Like, since I got tattoos, since I dyed my hair pink, and I started dressing more colorfully, I noticed that people stopped perceiving me as Asian. And that kind of made me think, why is that? Why don't why do I not look more Asian when I have colored hair and tattoos and dress alternatively? There there's a lot of hidden biases in there as well that I think people about a bit more as well.

Lily Newton:
Absolutely. Thank you for speaking on that. Okay. I'm gonna move on to the next kind of topic so we can stay within time because I could talk to you forever. So this summer, Easterseals is all about confidence and the importance of confidence and how proper supports and accommodations contribute to self confidence. So I just wanna know, when do you feel the most confident?

Courn Ahn:
I don't know if this makes sense, but I think I feel the most confident when I can just show up authentically as myself. And I think that's really broad, but for context, I'm always dressed head to toe in color. I'm holding sensory aids. I'm walking in with a bright pink mullet and tattoos. Like, I think it takes a certain level of confidence to do that every day knowing it will get so many weird looks. But I think that's what particularly makes me extra confident is just knowing I'm comfortable somewhere. Like, whether that's knowing someone won't judge me for stimming, for speaking a certain way, for needing to take more breaks, like, that I'm wanted just as I am. And that isn't very many spaces, but, like, dang.

Does it feel so nice when you get that? Like, feeling like I don't have to explain myself makes me feel so confident. It It also just gives me the energy to focus on whatever that task or activity actually is instead of all these, like, insignificant things that people wanna bring up.

Lily Newton:
Oh, absolutely. And big on the people are gonna, like, stare or have comments. I think that that's something that, people with more apparent disabilities deal with on the regular. So there's something about that, like, people are gonna stare, and I actually don't care because I'm confident in who I am. That's so important. So you kind of touched on this. But in the context of identity pride, as we've talked about intersectional identities, what does confidence mean to you?

Courn Ahn:
I mean, I think confidence is just, like, crucial to my identity. I think when we consider what it means to be a disabled person, a person of color, and a trans one at that in a world where it was quite literally punishable by law to be all those things not so long ago, and in many ways it still is, it's an incredibly powerful thing to turn the tables and be radically proud of those identities, like, shamelessly. I spent so much of my childhood hiding everything that made me stand out, that made me different, and it was a loss for me and everyone else around me by minimizing my identity. It's empowering, but it's also necessary. How can you stand up for yourself, you know, let alone countless communities that are being attacked right now if you don't have that level of acceptance or confidence in yourself? It's really, really hard.

Lily Newton:
Yeah. And that's such an important point on, like, when you're confident in your identity, that can influence others to feel confident in their identity. So there is like you said, you know, it's it's it was causing I don't know if harm's the right word, but it was an issue that you were hiding your true self for you, but also the greater world because they're missing out on something. Erin, I saw you came off mute. I wanna hear what you have to say on this because I know you have great things to say.

Erin Hawley:
I was gonna say that I'm working on the website for the confidence campaign, and I think it's really important that you mentioned how others in the community, whatever identity that you have, can make you feel confident just by being in community in the same space, and that's really powerful.

Lily Newton:
Yes. Absolutely. I mean, for me on this podcast, literally, Erin, you helped me so much with my confidence as like, no. I'm not gonna be like, oh, sorry. I'm disabled. I'm actually be like, I'm disabled. It's part of my identity, and I love it. And even when it's hard.

And Courn, very similarly, like, for me, your content and being so confident in who you are as a mixed race person specifically, like, that was very kind of new to me on my feed because I still have, I think, some shame around, like, identifying as Indian. I still think to myself, like, well, can I say that? Because my, like, I went to a predominantly white middle school in high school, and, like, what if that doesn't and, you know, just all the what ifs. And to hear you say, like, well, that that erases your heritage and your ancestors and all these things. It's like, oh my gosh. You're so right. And I'm leaving this recording feeling more confident to loudly say, like, yes. I am an Indian person. Like, there is it's it's really, really beautiful when confidence has that kind of ripple effect of, like, you can feel cool about who you are.

Lily Newton:
It's a good it's really cool.

Courn Ahn:
I love that. I love that.

Lily Newton:
And also in, like, what we talked about with design aesthetics and things like that. There's a layer there of, like, when you see someone being bold, I think it can allow some permission. And I think that, like, permission's an interesting word on the topic of confidence. But for me, when I see other people being confident in things, it does help me give myself permission to, like, boldly be confident in who I am.

Courn Ahn:
I think it's also more so of representation versus permission. Like, you just didn't know someone like you could do that. And it's not necessarily they're giving you permission, but you can just see someone else doing that. You're like, oh, I'm like that. I can also be that way. I can do these things. I didn't know that was an option.

Lily Newton:
Yes. And that is such an important point too in terms of, like, with social media having so much more representation of many different identities, there are the people who kind of take that as, like, well, why is everyone suddenly this? And it's like, what a silly thing to say when we know that, you know, we didn't have, like, video content available freely thirty years ago. You know? Like, there's there's a big reason that people are learning, and it's exactly what you said. It's that representation and seeing. And, like, I'll never forget one of my closest friends in college when he first started he transitioned throughout college. And when he first started his transition, he would say, like, yeah. People will ask me, like, why didn't I know I was trans until I was in my twenties? And he'd be like, well, I didn't see a trans person until I was 19. So I just thought that I was incredibly depressed.

And then I saw this person and was like, oh, wait. Maybe that's what my life could look like. And that is really, I think, a important kind of story arc for people to understand. It's not just that people are, like, claiming identities because it's fun. There's a layer of seeing someone. And, yeah, exactly what you said, Courn, the the representation. You're right. It's not permission.

It's just like, ah, what if that's me?

Erin Hawley:
Mhmm. Mhmm.

Lily Newton:
Which is really beautiful. Is there anything else you'd like to add on confidence or acceptance or anything else we've talked about in this wonderful recording?

Courn Ahn:
I think I just wanna talk a little about, like, about the context of, like, disability identity in terms of confidence because I think that there's a lot of ableist assumptions based around the idea that we have confidence in spite of our disability, that there's, like, a presumed level of hardship and competence or inherent flaw in us that makes it harder for us to be proud of ourselves. That, like, despite everything, that we're defying this logic, that we're proud of ourselves, and it's so inspiring. Wow. That is sarcasm. But society definitely does make it harder. But to have confidence as a disabled person specifically, not in spite of it, I think is a really radical thing. Like, I think the reality is that most nondisabled people will not assume you are confident, that you are worthy, that you were never positive adjective unless you directly show it to them. More often than not, you have to be the first one to advocate for yourself, and that requires a lot of energy, skill, and confidence.

And I wish it wasn't like that, but that's just kind of the reality we live in. If the majority of population won't celebrate you, you have to celebrate yourself first.

Lily Newton:
So so correct. So poignant. And, yeah, really, I'm happy we're focusing on confidence this summer because I completely agree that there is, like, an you know, I'm not great at catching subtext, but I will say there there is a level of subtext of, like, even though or in spite of. And, yeah, there's something I, actually, the first time where I worked at Easterseals when we were talking about, like, pride and confidence, we ran something that was like, I have pride in who I am not in spite of being disabled, but because I am disabled. And like you said, yeah, there's it it can be pretty freaking tough to be disabled in a world not built for you. And from designing your room how you want to accommodating your needs, like, that all of that is building confidence because of who you are, not in spite of who you are. I really appreciate that. Erin, any closing thoughts on confidence?

Erin Hawley:
I want people to know that confidence is not a constant state of being being. It turns out and that's fine. That's fine. It doesn't mean that it does not confident. Confident.

Courn Ahn:
Love that.

Lily Newton:
Mic drop and the recording. Perfect. No. Like, that's so yeah. That's absolutely correct. And, yeah, I think that this world values consistency a little too much. And, like, it's okay to be inconsistent with how you feel about yourself, and that doesn't mean that, like yeah, overall confidence is not built or maintained in a day. Well, I think this has been just a truly wonderful episode.

Courn, how can our viewers or listeners find your work online?

Courn Ahn:
You can find my personal account, candi dot corn, spelled c o u r n, on all social media platforms, and my art account is Courtney On Design on Instagram.

Lily Newton:
And all of those will be linked below in whatever description, whatever podcast platforming platforming you're on right now. Wonderful. Well, this has been such a wonderful episode. Thank you for joining us. I really appreciated everything you have to say, and I am constantly learning from the cool autistic people we have on this podcast, like, ways that I can accept and feel confident in myself. So, personally, I just really appreciate you coming on this show. Listeners, I hope you got something great from this episode. And, Erin, I love you.

Lily Newton:
I love hosting with you.

Erin Hawley:
Thank you.

Lily Newton:
We haven't recorded in a minute. It's nice to be back.

Erin Hawley:
It is.

Lily Newton:
Well, that's all we've got for you today. Tune in next time for another episode of Everything You Know About Disability is Wrong.

Erin Hawley:
If you liked what you heard, go ahead and subscribe subscribe and leave us a review wherever you get your podcasts.

Lily Newton:
Thank you to our listeners. And as always, thank you to Easterseals for giving us the space and resources to share such authentic conversations from within the disability community to our listeners.