Episode 28: Creative Ideas, Personal Brands, and the Workplace with Rachel Lowenstein

Episode 28 Show Notes

Rachel Lowenstein, Founder and Culture Expert at Rachel Lowenstein Consulting and Divergent Convergent, joins Lily Newton and Erin Hawley on the show. Rachel talks about workplace accessibility and how her work with Divergent Convergent is making a difference.

Rachel also opens up about her own experiences with finding her true identity, avoiding burnout, and shifting from a corporate job to running her own business. In this episode, Rachel shares her thoughts on creating better work environments, the challenges of traditional corporate settings, and the importance of community support.

Connect with Rachel Lowenstein on LinkedIn and Instagram.

Transcript

Lily Newton:

Hey, listeners. Welcome to another episode of Everything You Know.

Erin Hawley:

Today on the show, we have Rachel Lowenstein. Rachel has 10 years experience as a media executive and creative leader helping some of the biggest brands in the world grow through cultural fluency and social impact.

Lily Newton:

As an autistic woman, Rachel is a content creator who helps neurodivergent people live authentically with a community of over a 110,000 followers. Her mission to break stereotypes about autistic people has made her a forthright expert on neuro ..., where her community and Fortune 500 companies alike seek her unique experience as an autistic visionary. She cofounded Divergent Convergent, which is working with organizations like Google to make professional spaces more accessible to neurodivergent talent. Welcome to the show, Rachel. We're so excited to have you.

Rachel Lowenstein:

Thank y'all for having me. I'm thrilled to be here.

Erin Hawley:

Awesome. Before we get started, we're gonna do our audio descriptions for our blind or low vision, viewers and listeners. And I'll start. I'm Erin speaking, and I have red hair. I'm wearing a red shirt. I'm white, and I have Dansley earrings on today because I just feel like it. I like them. So I'm just forgot to describe that the earrings are very cute.

Lily Newton:

Yeah. They're adorable. Before we started recording, we were they caught our eye. We were talking about them. This is Lily speaking. I am a white passing mixed race person. I have brown hair with a little bit of chunky blonde highlights you can see in the front. I'm wearing my usual necklace that I will fidget with and a black turtleneck as always. I also have new fidget toys you might see in this episode, which are these cool acupuncture rings and bracelets. This thing I'm it's like a red ring that I will roll on my finger. It has become a lifesaver. Rachel has one too. Oh, this is great. I love being on podcast with other autistic people. Rachel, go ahead.

Rachel Lowenstein:

Yeah. So I'm I'm Rachel. I am a white woman with, dark brown, somewhat black hair. I'm sitting in a very colorful room with a, floral wallpaper behind me and a gold mirror. I too have a pink fidget toy, that looks like a a little acupuncture ring that I swivel around on my my hands, so you might see me kind of popping in and out, doing my little swim there.

Erin Hawley:

Awesome. I love it. So before we get really into the meat of the interview, we'd like to ask everybody at the beginning, I'll be able to write your name on our podcast. Is everything you know about disability is wrong? And what do people get wrong about you?

Rachel Lowenstein:

This is honestly a hard question for me to think about, because I've spent most of my life, certainly my adult life as somebody who is a high masking autistic person, caring very deeply what people thought about me and living in a way that felt really inauthentic to myself, because of it, because I was so sometimes obsessive with maybe getting things exactly right, being palatable to folks, masking my autism to the point that I kind of obsessed about what people thought about me. And people got a lot wrong about me, especially, especially as a kid. I think now I try to live my life by the, RuPaul mantra, which is that what other people think of me is none of my business. And I think that's what made this this question so hard for me because it almost is like, what what are things that people have gotten wrong about me that I've tried to just let go in my, in my, you know, thirties now? I think what people get wrong about me, especially as it relates to my disability, is I've oftentimes used, like, beauty and fashion and aesthetics especially to sometimes communicate how I was feeling or even mask the ways that I was struggling. So on the surface and I think people do this with with women especially a lot where we put women into boxes. Right? Like, you don't have to look too far in media just to see those tropes or stereotypes where it's career woman, damsel in distress, the promiscuous one. Right? We put these women into into boxes and media, and that's reflected in how we treat women today where it's like this very flat experience where what you see is maybe what you believe about that person. So growing up and eve in my twenties, especially, I would oftentimes use beauty or fashion or other aesthetics to hide ways that I was struggling so that I would assimilate with other people, feel like I was fitting in, and use my very good pattern recognition to observe the ways that other women might have been accepted or not scrutinized into somebody who had a disability but didn't know it until I was 30 years old. What I was trying to do was was blend in and mask. And today, I look back at the times where I was struggling the most and the times where I didn't want to be on in this world anymore. And I was presenting in a way that I think nobody would know that I was struggling. They would have seen someone who was doing very well on the surface, that they were fitting in, quote unquote, even though I never felt like I did or that I was doing well. And emotionally and mentally, I had never been doing worse in my life than I was really leaning on, visual ways to communicate that I was doing okay. And today, it's why I'm so outspoken and sometimes, like, quote, overshare because I never want people to get the perception that, you know, on on the surface, someone might be doing very well, it seems. But when I'm not doing well on my platforms, I'll talk about it. I'll share my experiences, maybe not in the moment, but in hindsight or in in times of reflection, because I think everybody you know, everyone what is that quote? If if you know everyone's life story, you you would never, you know, you would never judge anyone again. And I think it's why I try and live my way in a way that feels authentic, and I talk about the good, and I also talk about the the not so good.

Lily Newton:

Thank you for all that. I so relate to a lot of what you just said, and I especially that, like, when I look back at my Instagram as also a later diagnosed person, when I look at my, like, Instagram before I before I better understood how my brain worked and at the times when I didn't wanna be here anymore, my Instagram is snatched. Like, I looked I looked so good, and my makeup was done, and my hair and nails were done. And I was wearing these armors of very put together clothing. And I look back on that, and I see them, and I'm like, oh, I I really feel for that version of me. I can see that I can see that that looks like I was struggling mentally, but I know on the outside, it didn't. So I think that that's really important, and I appreciate you saying that this was a difficult question because you try not to pay attention to what people get wrong. I think that you know, we've been doing this podcast for, what, almost 2 years now, Erin. We've been working on it, and that's definitely something that has started to come up in the last, like, 6 months with guests is when we ask that question. There's kind of the, I don't know, and I don't think I care anymore, like, what people get wrong.

Rachel Lowenstein:

And Yeah. Yeah. I feel like it's it's important to be, you know, self aware to the point where you can kind of see objectively where, you know, there's there's judgments or perceptions about you and and shrugging it off, but also, you know, figuring out a way to, you know, just navigate it. But it is one of those things where you're like I think just as you mature and as you get older, you're just like and you're and especially in your thirties, I think you're like, I am who I am. And I try not to think about what what those perceptions are, but it is you know, it's it's part of it's part of the journey.

Lily Newton:

Yes. I think that's why it's also so important for women, especially, to, like, find especially if you're, like, a woman in your twenties, find older women that you can relate to. And, like, Erin, your late thirties, knowing you through that, taught me so much about my late twenties of like, oh, it's so cool to see this. She just doesn't really try to, like, get people to understand or, like, it's not worth the time to be fully understood by everyone. And that's something that, as a 27 year old, I'm like, I can't wait to leave that in my twenties. I'm so excited for my thirties and forties, which was pay me to go back to my twenties.

Rachel Lowenstein:

So, like, girls in your twenties, you were in the trenches. I feel for you. It is a lot out there. Yeah. I think I mean, I my twenties weren't all bad, but I also, like, look back, and I just wanna give that version of myself a hug because she'd had no idea what who she was. She was she was struggling. She was in pain. She was lost. And I think, you know, hopefully, it's it's a blessing, but you get to the point in your thirties where things just fall into place, but you also just stop caring so much about other people's perceptions beyond, you know, your people, your your the people that you love that have accepted you in your worst times and in your bad times.

Erin Hawley:

I love how there's, like, twenties, thirties, forties in this episode. She was like, yeah. I totally I I got to the point where I'm like, I don't care. Things really don't think it doesn't affect my life. Having said that, I do think it's important in my effort for me to continue celebrating disability and celebrating who I am so the younger people can see that and see, oh, I can be proud of who I am too.

Rachel Lowenstein:

Exactly. Not me.

Erin Hawley:

Like, he don't think about me.

Lily Newton:

Yeah. There's, like, a I don't care what people think. I think something I've learned from you guys, Erin, is the, like, I don't care what people think, but I care what that they know that I love me. Like, that I exude that I have this kind of, like, forgiveness for the mistakes I've made, excitement for my future, all of these things, and that's, like, for our community, for the, you know, disabled teens that maybe listen to our show to know that that's like yeah. You can you don't have to try to control other people's opinions of you, but your opinion of you is really important. Yeah. And just as women, I love that we started this conversation on this because there is so oh my gosh. When I was, like, 23, I felt like my life was over. And now at 27, I'm like, I'm so young. Like, there's so much. And I don't know why I thought when I was in my, like, very early twenties that being in your thirties and forties was just the worst thing that could happen. You're growing. You're aging. It's not good. And now I know, like, every 30 year old woman I mean, every 40 year old woman is like, no, I would never go back to my twenties. So I love that we found it there. Yes. And there's a lot of joy in your future listeners, especially as you embrace and learn about your own identity. So let's let's get into the meat of it. Rachel, you do really cool work. I love that in the description of your consulting work, you use the phrase, you help brands make sense of the chaos of culture. I love that phrase. Can you explain to our listeners, like, what that work was kind of like? And I also wonder as an autistic person, I wonder how does being autistic, like, help you make sense of that chaos?

Rachel Lowenstein:

Yeah. Honestly, being autistic has shaped my career. Once I understood how to work with my disability and accommodate my needs and advocate for myself, it's made my work a lot better, and it's honestly foundational to a lot of the work that I do and the reason why I'm quite good at the work that I do. So, the my consultancy that that I've created, after a decade at a big four advertising firm, which was a wonderful and transformative time of my life, focuses on helping brands build their relevancy and culture, through the lens of, social impact. So divorcing this idea that unfortunately is very, I wouldn't say popular, but very prevalent, from a a small minority of people where they try and say that business impact and social impact are mutually exclusive to one another, which I just foundationally believe is not true. Doing good for people and planet is also good for your business, and that's not an opinion. That is an objective, fact. There was a report put out from the United Nations and Oxford University this week that highlights how more progressive advertising is linked to business growth. So just one example of focusing on marketing and building brands and businesses through the lens of contributing back to the world, in a way that sometimes is more quiet in the work that you're doing and not, you know, a big ad campaign, which can feel very disingenuous. Most of the work that I do though focuses on helping brands unpack insights through what's happening in culture. So, for example, very relevant to to this conversation, you know, what does the rise of, more people identifying as neurodivergent mean for businesses? That's going to have a significant impact on employee experience. Right? Brands need to design employee experiences in a way that are, very different to what they look like today in office, even just the way managers are managing folks. As another example, you know, we've had this quote unquote girlhood trend over the last year, starting really with the Barbie movie and then the heiress tour and then Beyonce, and now the Olympics have the girlification of sport, and Naomi Osaka is showing up, to to tennis tournaments and bows and ruffles and frills. And I help brands understand what does the girlification of culture mean for their business. And that can be something very small, like a campaign that they are building. But the work that I really love to do is going in and transforming how businesses actually think about marketing and media strategy through the lens of what sometimes can be cultural trends or they can be full blown cultural movements. And, again, that can look like a lot of different things, but most of it is being an adviser and a culture expert to brands so that they can grow with the pace of culture, rather than lagging behind it. Does that make sense?

Lily Newton:

Yeah. That's really interesting. And I I love the example you brought up of the, like, girlification because it really has been a year of that. I think about even, like, the girl dinner trend and watching certain brands do so well with that, which were the brands that seemed to understand that the point of it was, like, this autonomy of not having to make a perfect meal and just, like, eating what you want at that night versus the brands that seem to really flop with it, where they leaned into the, like, girls can't make decisions, and, this is, like, malnourishment. Like, the the not like Mhmm. And that is, the way you phrase that is really interesting in that, like, you have to understand the bigger cultural movement to be able to play into these trends in a way that doesn't, like, really make your brand seem like a brand trying to be in today's moment, but actually is in today's moment?

Rachel Lowenstein:

I mean, that's exactly it. There's a lot of brands who've, for better or in many cases, for worse, have, you know, been trying to do women's empowerment campaigns for a number of years, but it's you know, a lot of it is like, okay. But what are you actually doing to progress feminist movements? What are you actually doing to ensure that women and girls have full access, and opportunity? Right? For example, the brand that did fearless girl, which was that that statue in front of the Wall Street Bowl, was actually later sued for, I think, gender and, for harassment claims or something. I might be getting some of the details of this wrong. The point of it is is that, you know, a lot of brands have done really good and laudable work in in the space of, cultural intelligence and making more impact in culture, but it's not just about that singular moment of girl dinner. It's about understanding what is the larger behavioral and social shift happening that makes it so that girls are like, I am tired of being everything to everyone all at once, including having to make a full fledged meal, and I just wanna eat a little piece of cheese. Right? That that feels like a silly little goofy social media trend, but it actually holds, like, a, to your point, a nugget of truth, which unpacks where women are today, where girls are are today. And that has a much bigger impact than just a silly little trend on social media, but it actually means something a lot more impactful for brands and businesses.

Lily Newton:

That is so cool. That's so cool.

Erin Hawley:

I'm really excited to just listen to you talk about it because I feel like a lot of companies don't get it.

Rachel Lowenstein:

No. They don't. Yeah. A lot of companies don't get it, but I you know, what I I think is so exciting about the world of of marketing and just culture insights in general is that, you know, marketers are just made up of marketing teams are just made up of people, and a lot of all those people are part of, obviously, the zeitgeist. They see what's happening, and they're very curious and excited about how they can sometimes either uplift communities or work with communities, as part of these social shifts that might be happening, whether it's a micro trend like brat girl summer or it's a macro movement like girlhood. And I think the best brands, the brands that do it really well, are the ones who display that level of curiosity while also moving with culture rather than trying to dictate what culture should look like.

Erin Hawley:

Have you noticed any don't name names, but any brands that kind of push back on that. I feel like they don't wanna engage in that way.

Rachel Lowenstein:

Yeah. I mean, without having to name names, I think you can look at the the landscape of the private sector today and see which brands, like, you as a person love. Right? Like, you could you could name the brands that you're like, oh, that that brand understands me, my community, the things that I love. I feel like actually, as a plug of, like, something someone who's done it very well, like, STANLEY has done this very well. Right? They collaborated a couple months ago with Love Shack Fancy, which is, like, a very feminine, girly clothing brand, and they're listening to the demands of their consumers. The brands that aren't doing aren't meeting the moment of of culture and staying relevant in culture, like, you can just say in your head right now 5 brands, I'm sure, that you're like they are flopping. They are struggling. They, they feel dated or, you know, sometimes they're actively contributing harm or regression to our the way that we view people. And I think there's a real need to display more cultural intelligence in that regard in the private sector, whether it's about, you know, actual social movements or it's about just staying relevant with with your customers.

Erin Hawley:

Yeah. Totally. So you made a TikTok about personal brands and why they're important. So can you share a bit about that and why you think it's important to have a personal brand?

Rachel Lowenstein:

Yes. And this is something that I am very passionate about and could scream from the rooftops, and it's something that I think is a nonnegotiable for any anybody in their career. If if you have a goal and a vision behind where you want your career to go, you need a personal brand. And y'all have built your personal brands very well here on on the podcast and how you position yourselves. Right? Unpacking stereotypes around disability and reframing the conversation. That is all part of your, Lily and Erin, your personal brands here. So what personal brands are, for those of you who who might be hearing this term for the first time, it's effectively creating a communications platform for yourself. And the reason why that's so important is everything in our world, for better or for worse, and this is, like, not this is not, like, an opinion, I think this is just an objective truth, is marketing. Right? The movements that you're you're passionate about, the brands that you like or you dislike, the ideas that you're attracted to, all of that comes down to just, like, really good communications. The the let me back up, and you can cut you can cut this part out. So when we think about what personal brands are and why they're so important, it's helping you communicate what your values are, helping you communicate what your strengths are, the things that you stand for as as a person. I've spent 10 years since I got out of college, maybe unintentionally, but very quickly understanding that I was building a personal brand, and what my personal brand stands for is, linking social impact to business impact, helping my teams and my mark and the marketers that I'm lucky enough to work with, be more culturally fluent and being an educator and an insights, insights generator for them. So when I was first starting my career, I very quickly realized that the people that I admired most, whether it was executives that I was working, under or whether it was, people like Brene Brown or other other famous figures in culture, they all had one thing in common, and it was that they had a very strong personal brand. You could look at them and say, this person stands for insert a couple of sentences about them, and you can communicate exactly what you what you see about them, what you know about them. For example, Brene Brown. She she platformed herself off of vulnerability. Vulnerability is Brene Brown's whole shtick. It's her personal brand. It's how she makes her money. It's what her content is largely about. And in doing so, you build what? You build memory recognition with them. You build brand recognition with your audience. You build affinity with communities, and potential clients. I think if you work in a big corporation like I did for a decade, you know, I worked for one of the largest companies in the world, WPP, having a personal brand is very helpful because it helps you stand out, amidst a a sea of folks. And I think if you're very young and and early in your career, it's gonna take you some time to build your personal brand. It took me a decade to build mine. I also think if that if you're an entrepreneur, it is a nonnegotiable to have a a strong personal brand. Right? You, as an entrepreneur, you are selling yourself. You are selling your identity. You are selling your ideas. You are selling, your your products, and having a strong personal brand behind that is really important. Right? I think about a lot of the very successful startups in the last couple of years. Just as one example, August, which is a period care pro product company. The creator of August created that brand while she was at Harvard, and she did it because she platformed herself as the spokesperson of the company and built herself as somebody who breaks down stereotypes around periods and menstruation. So a bit of a ramble, but I hope that that gives some insight into why personal brands are so important. If you have ambitions, if you have dreams, if you have career aspirations that, you know, require a bit of of, you know, navigating more complexities and then a kind of a linear career path, which is certainly valid, and then there's nothing wrong with that. But for those of you who have maybe a more nontraditional career path, personal brands will get you there a lot quicker and will also help you be more successful in doing so.

Lily Newton:

Yeah. I think that is so helpful, and so just thank you so much for sharing all of that insight because I think everything you said is true. And if if you're listening to this and you're kind of like, well, I don't I I'm happy working my 9 to 5 and doing what I like, I don't want to go out of that box at all, which is, again, totally valid and totally fine. I still think there's something crucial in this for determining what your own values are, and especially, like, I was someone who often felt like I just could not make choices because I was so overwhelmed with what should I be doing? What is the right like, I felt like there had to be some right path, and I had to unlock it. And then, you know, through great therapists who, you know, taught me that that that that I needed to stop shoulding on myself, as my current therapist loves to say, which I really love. But, you know, finding those kind of values or those things that I call my personal brand really helped me to be like, okay. Now I know how to make decisions that align with what I want for myself and what I value as a person. So So I think that that is another benefit that might not have to do with business at all, but in terms of, like, a few years ago, I I put into practice that my friendships were like, I value friendship more on top of a lot of things, and I see that play out here in that, you know, Erin and I talk about our friendship on this podcast even though it has nothing to do really with the other part of the podcast. It's just something I really value, and my friendships are a lot deeper a couple years later because when I need to make choices of do I do this or do I see my friend in her time of need, I know that I need to do that because it's what I value. So you have said, in some stuff I was reading before this, that authenticity, courage, and vulnerability are your north stars. So when I read that, I kind of thought, like, oh, that's, like, your version of that, the guiding light, like, how you can make your choices based on your values. So I'm curious. How did you find those north stars, and how do they guide your day to day life?

Rachel Lowenstein:

I found those north stars because most of my adult life, honestly, till I was about your age, like, late late twenties, I had been living in the exact opposite way, and it was making me miserable. It was making me sick. I was not succeeding, in a way that that felt good to me. And when I started to and this sounds so reductive and simplistic. Like, it sounds like something you would read in a kindergarten book, but, like, I feel like we forget this as adults. When I just started being myself, I was successful. I noticed on my social media platforms, when I just talked about things that I thought were interesting, I would get more engagement. I noticed when I was at work and talking about the hard stuff and being vulnerable in a way that still, like, met this idea of professionalism. I was getting a lot of support from people professionally. I was getting a lot more opportunities from people professionally. And when I was doing things that felt scary to me, but things that I had been wanting to do, like getting on stage and delivering a talk or a presentation to 100 of people, which is now what I do for for a lot of my work. But 10 years ago, that would have been, like, my biggest nightmare, but I I kind of wanted people to hear me. I wanted people to hear my ideas. And doing that those scary things actually, reaped a lot of rewards for me, but it required me to be courageous. And my point is is that only when I started to just be myself and be vulnerable about it and not shy away from the things that made Rachel special and made Rachel different and and and identifying those differences as something of value, that's when my life got a lot better, and that's when I started to see success. So my personal brand and my values, to your point, everything has to check those boxes. Does it feel authentic to me? Am I okay to be vulnerable in these situations? Right? Like, sometimes that's a good kind of, like, check for who I might wanna work with, because I have the privilege to kind of decide who who I do and don't wanna work with in certain situations now as a as a business owner, and being able to be courageous. If if situations, you know, don't allow me to make decisions that are right for me or do it in a way that is is, you know, unabashedly me, then it's not the right it's not the right situation for me. And it's obviously taken a very long time to get to that position, get to that position of privilege, but being able to make kind of life choices through that filter for myself, has made my life a lot better, but it took a lot of trial and error to figure out, oh, if I really just do live in a way and and make decisions in a way that are right for me, other people are gonna see that, and they're going to understand me a lot more.

Lily Newton:

Yeah. I think that that's it's it all just ties together too with that personal brand you've brought up in that, like, the it it could be so easy to hear the phrase, like, you need to make a personal brand and take that as, like, the it person you wanna be, like, who this is. But in reality, it's it's not becoming someone you should be. It's honing in on who you are, I think, is what you think.

Rachel Lowenstein:

The exact opposite of, like, molding yourself to who you think you should be. It's, I I didn't come up with this phrase, so whoever did come up with this phrase, full credit to you. It's don't fake it till you make it. Evoke it till you are it. Right? If if there's something that you are struggling with or something that you want to be achieving If you fake it till you make it, you're not being your your authentic self. But if you're just evoking, right, I wanna be a more confident person. I want to be somebody who, can do something that feels really scary to me, but I I think I might like it in the long run. If you just evoke those behaviors, evoke that mindset, eventually, it will become more habitual. Eventually, it will feel more authentic. And, you know, you are your own worst enemy. Right? You're the person who always gets in in your own way, and it's it's not at all about trying to mold yourself to something that you think you should be. Building a strong personal brand is about getting very honest with yourself and reflecting on what's good for you, what feels natural to you, what are existing skills that you can lean on and and platform yourself on, or what are things that you need to work on and you need to improve and you want to improve about yourself that that feel good to you. It takes a lot of self reflection. It takes a lot of self awareness. It takes, having and sorry for using all of, like, the corporate speak, but I feel like after a decade in corporate advertising, I can't help myself, but it takes, like, having a board of advisors. Right? Like, you need a team of, like, who are your girlfriends, your your friends in general who you can lean on and ask, what what am I good at? What what do you see about me? And and using those insights to craft where where you want to go in your career next. And, you know, your board of advisers should be friends. It should be mentors, advocates, people who are junior to you, and getting that feedback, from folks is also very helpful because no person is an island. We owe we owe things to each other, and I've helped many people, friends, mentees, other mentors of mine, as they're shaping what what their career or what their life is gonna look like next.

Lily Newton:

I love that you said we owe things to each other because we think it's such a crucial thing in today's this is a very, like, 2024 conversation of this episode, you know, talking about brands and corporate social responsibility and all of this. And I think that there's this idea, maybe it's because I spend too much time chronically online, but you see the people you see the examples where, this kind of, like, honing in on who you are gets tied to individualism, and I think that's a real disservice, because we do owe each other things, and community is so important. And, you know, especially working at Easterseals, this service nonprofit that, we see our affiliates are, you know, coming to work on hard days, and we're just doing amazing work because they care about their community. Like, that I just I I just point all that out to say that community care, having a trusted board of advisers, trusting people, that goes hand in hand also with this personal brand. It's not what did you say that no one's an island. That's really good.

Rachel Lowenstein:

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's exactly it. I I disdain. Like, I loathe the phrase, you don't owe anybody anything. It's just not true. It's like it is just not true. Yes.

Rachel Lowenstein:

You know, we talked in the beginning about kind of eschewing and letting go what people think about you, but at the same time, it's this delicate dance where you do owe people things in your lives. You do owe support to to people who haven't been given a fair shot, like maybe you have been given or the access that you've been given. We owe our friends a lot. We owe our family a lot. And I think maturing is just realizing as as life goes on, all it all you really have are is yourself and your community. And this individualistic idea that you don't owe anybody anything and you're you're in it alone, it's it's a really lonely way to live. It's a really unhealthy way to live. And if you are in a place where you can help, why wouldn't you? My one of my mentors told me once, many years ago when I was dealing with something that was, like, of no consequence of my career in hindsight, but I was I was really struggling with something. And she said to me, after we kind of worked through it, and I I profusely thanked her for her help, she said, all I ask, Rachel, is that you pay it forward when your time comes. And, again, a couple of weeks ago or a couple months ago rather, that same mentor was helping me with, me trying to decide if I was going to leave my corporate job after 10 years and and start my own businesses, and it was scariest thing I've ever done in my life. And after she kind of coached me through some stuff that I was really struggling with, I said to her again, thank you so much. I I do not know what I would do without you. You know, gave gave her all the flowers for supporting me. And she said, again, in the exact same way, all I ask is that you help that you pay it forward when your time comes. And it's something that I always hear, and it's something that I always think about when I'm in a position where I can help somebody. And if it's more of my time, a little bit more of of, effort on my part, what what's it to me if I can pass along somebody's resume, if I can give them just a quick piece of advice? Obviously, you need boundaries and you you need to protect your peace where you can. But I think, you know, just to go back to what we were saying, we do owe each other things because I would not be where I am today without the help of other people who invested their time into me.

Erin Hawley:

Totally. I think it's, like, so important, especially in a disability community because I know we talked about, like, they don't care what other people think about us, but it can be difficult emotionally, physically to be disabled in public and to be so vulnerable in public that it's important for us to uplift each other and support each other. That's really great what you just said.

Rachel Lowenstein:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We we owe each other to be generous and and support where we can and maybe help break down stereotypes or misperceptions, about our community when we're hearing them.

Erin Hawley:

Totally. I just wanna ask about, how you created the neuro communications guide. So have you can you tell us about that and what some of the reactions are to that?

Rachel Lowenstein:

Yeah. For sure. So I created a neuro communications guide that I, posted on LinkedIn, and it went semi viral. I would say it's been downloaded, I think, at this point, like, about 30,000 times, with no paid media behind it, which, you know, is obviously incredible to have 30,000 people download it just organically, from from me sharing it, from other folks sharing it. The neuro communications guide was created, honestly, because I was getting just tired of explaining to people over and over again, like, the very simple things that they can do to work with neurodivergent people at work, mostly, like, selfishly because I was tired of explaining it for myself, but also I would get the same questions from my community. Hey. How do you ask people to send an agenda before a meeting? And this stuff is so simple. Like, when I say it out loud, I I'm still I'm like, I think people are going to be like, that's so simple. Why does she need to create a whole guide around it? But I did. Having worked in in corporate for 10 years, and even just in with with folks who aren't in corporate, I think people move very quickly because they're on deadlines. They're they're under pressure. Right? They they've got their own stuff going on, and I think that they just forget, like, the basics of communication, which oftentimes are a necessity for autistic folks, neurodivergent folks in general, people with other disabilities. So I created the neuro communications guide as just like a quick pit to see, okay, what are the things that I can do to be an ally to somebody who is autistic, has ADHD, Tourette's, dyslexia, etcetera? And it's certainly not all encompassing. It's kind of just a high level of here's some things that I know that I need, Rachel needs, that I know a lot of my colleagues also need who are neurodivergent, that I know my community needs. So I shared it to LinkedIn. Also shared it to Instagram. It got picked up by from some other folks on TikTok. And the way that I position it is that you can leave it in your signature similar to how you might include your pronouns in your signature, to to identify, your gender identity or normalize, breaking down those misperceptions around gender. You can do the same thing by linking the neuro communications guide in your email signature if you feel safe, and comfortable to to be out about your disability at work. So I included in my email signature. It just says, I am autistic. Here is a guide I created on how to communicate with neurodivergent folks at work, and I link it to the Canva link directly. It highlights things like, preciseness. Say what you mean, mean what you say. If you need something, when do you need it? Why do you need it? Right? What's the context behind it? Being adaptive, adapting your communication style. Sometimes, I think a lot of folks like to get on the phone and they like to discuss things live, right, which I certainly see the value in that and sometimes that helps me too. But being able to recap everything in an email afterwards if you have auditory processing issues and maybe you just need some time to process that information, providing an agenda, so, you know, the context beforehand. The list goes on, and and you can check check out the the guide. It's linked to my Instagram bio. The point of it is is just helping people give, get very simple but impactful ways that they can better, that they can better, you know, augment or adapt their communication style, whether it's verbal communications, written communications, etcetera. So everyone every mind can be valued at work and not just the very stereotypical, like, extroverted, highly social type personality type, which, you know, if you're neurotypical and you're just introverted or maybe you just need more time alone to think about your thoughts, the neuroi communications guide is also for you. It's it's not just for neurodivergent folks. I think it really just helps all folks at work.

Lily Newton:

Yeah. And there's a certain level of, like, when you open up conversations like that by including something like that in your signature, there's a level of creating what I think of as, like, an assumption of benevolence within the people that you're talking to of that, like, I for people to interact with me and me to be do my best work, I need that assumption of benevolence because I ask a lot of clarifying questions that people often take as me questioning their, like, whether it's a good I like, when I'm trying to clarify what an idea is, I've learned that to neurotypical people, it can feel like I'm questioning whether the idea is good at all. Like, a silly example of that that's not work related is that, my partner and I were making salmon recently, and he put some, like, tinfoil around the salmon. And I was like, oh, is that a good idea to put tinfoil around the salmon? And I was taking that in my head as, is that a good idea that I should add to my list of good ideas? And how it was received, which, obviously, my partner and I have been together for a while, and he understands my brain, so we were able to have a conversation about it. But was do you think that's a good idea? Like, the it read with a very and if tone isn't doesn't make that any clearer, it made it seem like I was questioning, why are you doing that? Like, I think that's a bad idea, when in reality, I was just wanting some perspective. And so that assumption of benevolence, I do find is necessary in the workplace, and having something like the neuro guide in your signature just kind of, for me, has, opened it up. Because I've had that guide in my signature before. I've spoken at Easterseals meetings about the kind of things that I need, and it's kind of created that assumption of benevolence throughout the whole organization of that now when there's confusion or someone's like, hey. I need this, it comes from a, well, this is just the way to be not a assumption of malevolence, which is like they're questioning what I'm doing. So I think that's really important, and I really appreciate the work you put into creating that guide. And 30,000 people, that's awesome because each of them are having colleagues read it, and that means that neuro is just becoming more a part of the fabric of workplaces, which is really exciting. So I wonder Yeah. Yeah. Go ahead if you're gonna say something.

Rachel Lowenstein:

No. No. No. Go for it.

Lily Newton:

Well, I wonder in I feel very lucky. I've gotten to experiment with being vocal and asking for accommodations and things that I need while working at Easterseals. It's a disability service organization. We've had phenomenal reception. Even the fact that Easterseals helps us make this podcast, is really incredible. But I wonder in a different setting if I would have felt comfortable advocating for my needs as I have here. So I kinda wanna talk about professionalism and self advocacy and how those 2 meet up. So to start that conversation, for our listeners who might not understand the tie between how professionalism can lead to some ableism in the workplace, can you speak on that?

Rachel Lowenstein:

Yeah. I mean, listen. Professionalism as it stands today in in most contexts, certainly in in corporate America, only benefits straight, white, wealthy men. Like, that it like, the very, like, rigid structure of what professionalism looks like, it does not benefit, by and large, women. It does not benefit, communities of color. It does not benefit LGBTQ people. It does not benefit people who have disabilities. And I also just think even for anybody like, somebody who fits that mold perfectly. Right? They're a man. They're cisgender. All the things. You still have to cosplay professionalism. Like, professionalism in and of itself, I almost feel like, betrays all these ideas about authenticity, and it's re it's a reason why it's it's such a filter for me on on my personal professional brand. The ways that professionalism reinforce ableism, can be, you know, pretty pretty vast. Just the idea, like, the most simple example I can give that, you do your best work in a highly collaborative in person environment, and that is spoken as if it's a truth. Like, I I I've I've lived these experiences where I've heard people say, very confidently as as if it is a fact that collaborating in person is the only way to get good creative ideas. That is not true. Certainly, I I and I I believe this. There are many times that I've created wonderful work in person collaborating with other people. But the distinction is is when I was doing that, those people that I was collaborating with, working with, also honored my needs as somebody who has a disability. And, you know, those I can I can get into what that looks like exactly, but, you know, remote work remote work is viewed as, like, not professional or that you're not ambitious or that you're not a team player? And it is just a fact that if you want folks with disabilities on your team and a lot of companies are are lauding that they do hiring programs for people who are autistic or neurodivergent who have disabilities, but in the same swing, they also have a, return to office mandate, and those those are contradicting conflicting ideas. Other other ways that it can reinforce ableism, you know, I think just as as people, we, you know, we don't live in a way that's, like, without emotion and without feeling and without just sometimes, you know, not being, like, saying things perfectly, especially, you know Lily, you mentioned you're autistic as well. Yeah. So, you know, especially for autistic folks, sometimes we struggle with emotional processing. And there's been many times at work where, you know, I know that I'm struggling emotionally, and I will just have said very clearly, I need to go be alone for a little bit just to kind of think through what what our next steps might look like. And that was my way of navigating it without having, like, a a full breakdown about something while still maintaining respect for my colleagues. But, this idea that we have to be so emotionless and not bring our whole selves to work, you know, it's not just ableism. That also, you know, affects a lot of people. It affects, mothers who might have been up all night with with their their baby or their their kid. It affects any marginalized person that might be struggling with a systemic or or individual level of bias against them, and they are expected to show up and just put all of that aside, which nobody wants that. Nobody wants to feel that way. So these standards of professionalism don't do anything to help most people. And if organizations want to grow, they want to make money, which every that's what every business exists to do, They need to reshape what professionalism looks like. Obviously, there's there's some things that I think are are good about, quote, unquote, professional standards, and I think a lot of that needs to be reshaped to meet the needs of people where we are today.

Lily Newton:

Very, very well said. And I think you answered the follow-up in there, which is how do you kind of be excellent, do well in a corporate workplace while also accommodating yourself? But I I really appreciate the example you gave there of the, like, I need to step away for a little bit and, be a like, there are ways, I think, to take the space and time you need without having you know, break pushing yourself to the point of breaking down in the workplace. I think that that's really important. I wanna get into I wanna save some time to get into our questions, as we approach National Disability Employment Awareness Month. But before we dive in there, I would be remiss not to bring up burnout because when talking about being autistic in the workplace, I don't think that you can skip over burnout. In burnout gets used very casually in corporate workplaces, and it's kind of tossed around as something that, like, don't want you to burn out. So take a weekend and go relax, which is not really how you fix autistic burnout. So I'm wondering, can can you share some of your experiences with burnout and better help our listeners understand what that might be like?

Rachel Lowenstein:

Yeah. I mean, my worst times of burnout were when I was unaware that I was autistic in my mid and and late twenties. And, candidly, I do not remember a lot of that time. It was, like, this, like, moment in in the history of me where I, like, look back and it was all kind of hazy and, not clear because I was struggling so much with with burnout and didn't actually know what I was struggling with. I just thought I was just like like, this is not a a big deal, but I thought I was just struggling with severe depression and anxiety. I think it is very difficult to to navigate any workplace when you're autistic. And and sometimes I look back at my career over the last 10 years, and I actually, like, do not know how I how I survived, in a corporate environment for 10 years. I think part of it, is that I was very, very lucky, and I I hate even saying that I was lucky. Like, this this should just be normal, but I was surrounded by really kind, empathetic people for a lot of it. And the times where I was struggling the most was when I was maybe, not surrounded with with supportive people professionally. So, I look back at the early parts of my career. I look back at when I came out as autistic at work, and I just think, God, I don't know what I did to get so lucky to have people who responded with empathy and care. When I told my boss at the time that I had received an autism diagnosis, they replied with a pause, like, didn't say anything for maybe a full 10 seconds, and then they said, what do I need to know about what comes next? Right? They wanted to know what accommodations I might need. They wanted to know where I needed support, where I was struggling. And I think the burnout that I have experienced, and I'm kind of, like, wrestling with now after leaving corporate for 10 years and realizing, like, man, I kind of I kind of need a a break. A lot of it came from structural and systemic things in corporate environments that I firmly believe can be changed. And then some of it is honestly going to be very difficult for corporations to to alter and and accommodate. I do think that accommodations, by and large, are not complex or overly burdensome for organizations. They they, being organizations, sometimes just do not understand the the simplicity with which they can be implemented, especially and I'm specifically talking about through the lens of of autistic folks, which is why when I'm talking to mentees or even just my community, the number one piece of advice that I give to people with needing accommodations if if you are struggling is and I don't think that you should have to justify the business case, but it just makes the back and forth a lot less intensive. Frame it around the business case. Here is how I do my best work. Here is an example of when I did my best work, and I have that accommodation, which is exactly what I what I did. I pointed to all the amazing work that I had produced, and it was while I was at home working from home during quarantine. And being able to hook it to the business case just makes it less of a, like, debate and more of a here is an objective fact of me doing my work very well and me producing better work, being a top employee, whatever it looks like. But I don't think that you should have to do that. But I think if you're, you know, if you're in a professional corporate environment, sometimes it it's just simpler if you can kind of learn to play the game a little bit. I feel like I didn't exactly answer your question about burnout, but I also think it's something that I'm just navigating with myself right now after leaving my job after 10 years and kind of reflecting with with what worked for me and what didn't work. And what did work for me is having people who were extremely supportive, especially leaders who are very supportive, which helped mitigate when I was struggling the most and helping me find a better balance.

Lily Newton:

Yeah. No. I actually think you answered really well in the bringing up that looking back and feeling that, you know, I didn't realize it was burnout. I just thought it was really intense anxiety and depression. I think that that is a, I would guess, is a pretty common feeling in the autistic community in that, you know, especially late diagnosed, there's this I I think that all of my later diagnosed autistic friends, we all have that shared. We just thought we were gonna be extraordinarily depressed and anxious forever because that was just who we were. And then it was like, oh not everyone feels this way? This isn't this isn't the normal experience? Yeah. Just kinda just like, well, I just thought that's being a human. And then it's like, oh, actually, I wasn't doing things for my brain that were necessary, which are is very important. And I think, so, yeah, listeners, if you're someone who's dealing with that, a lot of the, like, tips and tricks you see online to get out of a depressive state, are actually, like, the opposite of what you need to do if you're in autistic burnout in that you know, my best friend and I were recently chatting about this that when we thought we were just super depressed, we were constantly, like, pushing. Like, okay. I'm gonna push myself to leave the house. I'm gonna push myself to do this thing. I'm gonna push myself, and then I'll feel better, And it never works because in reality, our brains were exhausted, and we actually need it.

Rachel Lowenstein:

You can't be productive. You can't, like, productivity your way out of a mental health crisis.

Lily Newton:

Absolutely not. And, you know, for me, it was, like, months of doing of spending hours a day doing nothing. Just, you know, like, work ending and laying on the couch and just doing nothing, actually, not even looking at my phone. And, you know, now I have, like, built in days of rest, and I take a full day of rest every week, to be able to function. And I think, you know, that's I just appreciate everything you said there and how you and how you're kind of just now navigating in this new career. Okay. What does it mean for me, and when was I maybe dealing with burnout that I didn't realize? So I appreciate you saying all of that. And this is a a good transition then.

Lily Newton:

Listeners, it's October when you're listening to this, which is National Disability Employment Awareness Month, NDEAM is what it's often called because it's a mouthful. Here at Easterseals where we do a lot of employment services, it's a month we look forward to every year because it's very important. So have some questions for you, Rachel, about workplace and National Disability Employment Awareness Month. Erin, you wanna kick us off?

Erin Hawley:

Yeah. So for, Easterseals, we're all about access in employment in other areas of life. So what does that mean to you when someone says access, and employment?

Rachel Lowenstein:

For me, and this is gonna sound really ... it means just asking people how they do their best work, which I know sounds shocking. But what I find what I find when I'm talking to executives about neuro is they think it's like this extremely complicated kind of misty new area that's, like, highly innovative and all these things, and and it's just it's really simple. You just have to be curious about how people do their best work. How do you best give and receive information? How are you when and where and how are you most creative? And I think the reason why corporations in particular struggle so much, with, whether it's neuro, whether it's the broader DE and I work, it's because there's, like, this level of rigidity and and lack of flexibility and adaptability in their workplaces. Although the most creative and innovative companies are also the ones who are most flexible and adaptable, and that's not by surprise or and it's very much by design. Right? So when I think about creating better workplaces, it's just having people, especially people who are in leadership roles, asking that question. Is there another way that you want to do this project? Is there a better way that I can give and receive information for you? Is there a accommodated way that you need a you need your work to be set up for you? And in turn, I think employees, whether it's you're neurodivergent, you have a disability, etcetera, having a very clear sense of what those systems need to look like. And if if you're getting that question from from leaders, if you're getting that question from a manager, hopefully, you can you can trust, or you you have seen the pattern that they are creating more space for for your needs so you can advocate for them. I fully appreciate and understand that, for many folks, that's not the reality. In fact, I just had a a business ask me to do a training around asking for accommodations for employees, and I said no because I wanted to understand what are the HR practices that they had in place before we did a training to teach people how to ask for those accommodations. One, because it's not safe for them to train folks if the policies and the people who are enacting those policies are not fully trained on what they need to be doing. But, 2, I do not think it should be the burden of the disabled person to make the change. It is our burden obviously to communicate what we need to be able to communicate how we can, do our work better when when our accommodations are being met. But actually implementing those accommodations, meeting those accommodations, and honoring those accommodations. That's the burden on the work of of the leadership team, or or management. So that's what it looks like for me.

Lily Newton:

Thank you. We've touched on this a little throughout the episode, so it's it's okay if it's a brief answer, but, how do employment practices benefit companies?

Rachel Lowenstein:

So there's a a term, and I talk about this a lot in in public spaces, called the curb cut effect. Have you all y'all ever heard of this in the same way?

Lily Newton:

The curb cut effect.

Rachel Lowenstein:

Okay. I'm I was like, I feel like y'all, like, we speak this language. We we know about this.

Lily Newton:

The best part of this podcast is the shared vocabulary, but feel free to share it to our listeners.

Rachel Lowenstein:

Yes. So I'm sure for your listeners, they've they've heard this before, and are very well versed in it. So but for those of you who aren't, the curb cut effect is a term that was first coined by disability activists, in the 19 sixties seventies in the United States, and it was coined because at the time disability activists were advocating for curb cuts on sidewalks, right, those cutouts that, help people with, mobility related needs, who use wheelchairs, etcetera, being able to be mobile or move about their cities. Before, folks who use mobility devices, who use wheelchairs, they were just confined to their neighborhoods, and they could not move around their cities because there was no curb cuts. When those were finally enacted by city planners, of course, people with disabilities benefited from this implementation, but who else benefited? It was mothers who used strollers. It was commuters. It was people who maybe had a a temporary disability, and and had mobility challenges. So the point is is that when you design for people with the most material needs in society, everyone is going to benefit from it. When I talk about, you know, needing some of the things that I need as an autistic person, clarity, around projects, being able to communicate over email first and then and then have in person conversations, etcetera. When I say that I need those things, what I hear 9 times out of 10, usually from leaders is, oh, that's just good business, or, oh, that's that would benefit me too. And it's like, yeah, that's that's the point. This is not just an isolated thing that that I might need. This is going to benefit most people. And even if it is something that is just an isolated need or an isolated accommodation, if they are asking for that, trust that they are asking for it because that is how they are going to produce their best work. And when people are producing their best work, your business is going to benefit from that. And, again, I do not I do not personally believe that we need a reason, a business case behind accessibility, but when you're talking to these Fortune 500 CMOs, CEOs, etcetera, I understand that they are beholden to their business, their shareholders, etcetera. And making that business case is usually the simplest way to get folks to lean into accessibility related programs when you can tie in the social impact to the business impact.

Lily Newton:

Absolutely. Thank you for sharing that.

Erin Hawley:

Totally. Yeah. So what's the threats or accommodations have been important in your career in the workplace, but also outside of that as well?

Rachel Lowenstein:

So this actually leans into a project that I'm launching. If I can do a little a little plug behind it, but it answers the question directly. Okay. Cool. Didn't don't wanna be like and here's a word from our sponsors, Rachel Lowenstein. So the one of the biggest challenges that I've faced, you know, working in media and in advertising for a decade, which are very social industries. Like, the the way that you build your career and the way that you build your, the way you build your career is oftentimes at big professional events, whether it's South by Southwest or the Consumer Electronics Show or Cannes Lions or Advertising Week or insert any, like, big event that your industry might be, present at, and that's where you meet people. That's where you advance your career. That's where you learn, about your industry or learn about new trends that that might be important for you to know about. These events are, very challenging, to say the least, if you are autistic, and I used to leave them, unable to to speak, and would lay in my bed sometimes for several days with a a sensory hangover or unable to just take care of myself in general. My husband would have to act as my caretaker. And it got to a point where I was and and these are very privileged places to be, so this is not like a woe is me situation, but I also just acknowledge and and was frustrated by the fact that I couldn't go to these events without materially hurting myself and and the process. And I also saw a lot of other people who were not doing well at these events, whether they were also autistic, had ADHD, or were just maybe, like, struggling with their mental health in general. And I just thought, it does not have to be this way. It does not have to be this hard. We should be able to access these events just like anybody anybody else and be able to do it in a way that is healthy for us while also advancing our careers. So, a couple of years ago, I was very honored and lucky to work with Google on a project called the New Project, which is an events guide that helps events planners build more neuro events. So think things like sensory rooms, sensory spaces, also thinking about food related needs, safe foods, lighting on stages, all all the things that go into building an event and thinking about neuro at the center. Just like all events should have fully accessible spaces for people with physical disabilities, there's also things that you can be doing that are also very creative and they make your events better and more, more fun, and more enjoyable that help neurodivergent people. That project really transformed the potential that I I think about, my accessibility related needs and the creative opportunities behind that. Right? I firmly believe that accessibility and creativity are just two sides of the same coin. We just have to think of them that way. So, a couple of months ago, I cofounded a a business called Divergent Convergent, and it was cofounded with a former coworker and very good friend of mine, Kelly Garland, who has ADHD, and we created it to break down these barriers around professional spaces. That can be events. It can be, providing more support to to neurodivergent people in a community setting for helping advance their career. And it was born again out of this kind of frustration that we both had with you know, I will go to events, I will be a speaker at events, and if I ask for a sensory space or a quiet space, I'm usually just put into a closet, which doesn't feel like super humanizing or or kind. So the the kind of our core area of focus for the next year at least, just purely based off of our our bandwidth, because we think this could be much bigger than where we're focusing right now, but we are focusing mostly on event spaces and partnership with the new project and with Google. So we'll be working to build, resiliency spaces and other, reimagined ways that events can can look different for people. And as a very tangible example of that, we are going to be at IMAX, and IMAX is, I think the world's largest events industry event, in Las Vegas in 3 weeks, and we are debuting in partnership with with the new project and with Google a resiliency space, which is the official, resiliency space and neuro space at IMAX, but we are also debuting a new concept, around an antisocial social happy hour. So networking is awful. Like, I do not know anybody who enjoys networking, but I also do not think it has to be that way and we can make it something that's more enjoyable. So we'll be implementing, some experiences that will help make networking better for all people, but especially thinking about neurodivergent needs in mind first. Think things like, having a painting station so you can have a conversation with somebody while painting. If you struggle with eye contact like I do, doing some sort of stimming related activity like painting can be really helpful. It also just helps spur up conversation, so you can be doing something while you're also having a conversation with somebody, having conversation cards if you don't know what you want to talk about. Designing the entire experience with sensory needs in mind, those are just a couple of things. There's a lot more that's sitting behind it. But all that to being said, that is has been my biggest challenge is, you know, somebody who was an executive for for, at a big agency for 10 years to now being a business owner, thinking about these spaces that advance your career and ways that we can make them better for all people, but especially for my community, the autistic community, and then the broader neurodivergent community as well.

Lily Newton:

I think that's so incredible, and I'm so glad that we had the time to get to talk about talk about neurodivergent convergent because that is such a cool thing you're working on. I am so glad that you took that leap because I can tell that it's going to benefit our community greatly, and it's definitely needed. I love conferences because, like, the they're just such an exciting time, but I'm I'm the same way where when I sign up for a conference, I'm signing up for a week to 2 weeks of recovery, and I don't have time for that. So I I really appreciate the work you're doing there. And, listeners will if you check out the links in this video, we'll have links to all of Rachel's pages so you can learn more and keep up with what they're doing over at Divergent Convergent. Rachel, any where can our listeners find you, and any last words before we sign off?

Rachel Lowenstein:

No last words. I'm very grateful y'all had me on today, and thank you for asking such thoughtful and interesting questions, and producing such a a wonderful dialogue between the 3 of us. I'm most active on Instagram these days, so you can find me at Rachel Eason, I, double s, a, n as in Nancy. You can also find me on LinkedIn, where I'm frequently shouting about redefining professionalism, over there. So over there, I am Rachel Lowenstein. And, yeah, thank you so much for having me on the podcast today.

Erin Hawley:

Thank you. This is amazing. Yeah. Thank you. Conversation.

Lily Newton:

Thank you so much. We seriously appreciate it, and I love your content so much. This is truly a dream to have you on the show. And listeners, thank you for being amazing and supporting our show. Happy National Disability Employment Awareness Month. We hope we're making you aware. And, Erin, as always, thanks for co hosting in this show. It's a dream to get to work with you.

Erin Hawley:

Same.

Lily Newton:

And we will see you next time on another episode of everything you know about disability is wrong.

Erin Hawley:

If you like what you heard, go ahead and subscribe and leave us a review wherever you get your podcasts.

Lily Newton:

Thank you to our listeners. And as always, thank you to Easterseals for giving us the space and resources to share such authentic conversations from within the disability community to our listeners.

Erin Hawley:

And I'll see you next time for another episode of everything you know about disability is wrong.