Episode 23: Redefining Accessibility: Jenna Bainbridge’s Impact on Theater and Disability Representation

Everything You Know About Disability Is Wrong Podcast

August 6, 2024

In this episode, hosts Erin and Lily interview Jenna Bainbridge, an actress, singer, and accessibility advocate. Jenna shares her journey as the first wheelchair user to perform in a new musical on Broadway, debuting in the award-winning "Suffs." She discusses her career and daily life as an ambulatory wheelchair user, challenging misconceptions and emphasizing the importance of accessibility and personal freedom.

Jenna explains how her wheelchair enhances her ability to navigate New York City, offering independence in an often inaccessible environment. She highlights the spectrum of capabilities and needs, breaking down binary views of disability. Her role in "Suffs" underscores the power of collective activism and the importance of every action in contributing to a larger movement.

The episode also touches on Jenna's work with Consultability, a consulting company she co-founded to make theater spaces more accessible. Her experiences offer a rich discussion on the intersections of art, disability, and advocacy, providing listeners with a deeper understanding of inclusivity's importance in all areas of life.

Connect with Jenna Bainbridge on Instagram and on her website. Check out Suff the Musical.

Transcript

Lily Newton:

Hey, listeners. Welcome back to a new episode of Everything You Know about Disability is Wrong.

Erin Hawley:

And today's episode, we have the amazing actress, singer, and disability rights advocate, Jenna Bainbridge.

Lily Newton:

In 2024, Jenna became the 1st wheelchair user to perform in a new musical on Broadway when she made her debut in Suffs, which won the 2024 Tony Award for best book and best music. She can also be seen in NBC's Found, and you can hear her narrate the audiobooks for Marieke Nijkamp's Unbroken and Alice Wong's Disability Intimacy. Before we get started with the interview, which I'm so excited for excited for, let's do our audio descriptions. Erin, you wanna start?

Erin Hawley:

Sure. So I'm Erin. I am a white woman. I have red hair, and I'm in a white T shirt. And I'm in my bedroom, which has red walls and a closet behind me. And I'm sitting in my wheelchair.

Lily Newton:

I'm Lily. I am a white passing mixed race woman with brown hair and green eyes. I'm wearing my usual all black outfit with my gold jewelry that I will fidget with throughout the course of the interview. And I'm in my office where, depending on the view of the screen, you can see a bunch of great disability books behind me as well as a ton of stim toys. Jenna, you wanna go ahead and give your audio description?

Jenna Bainbridge:

Yeah. I'm Jenna. My pronouns are she/her. I am a white woman with dark hair pulled back wearing a red muscle T shirt. I am sitting in a room with artwork behind me, so there's, you can sometimes see a sign that says, I love you a bushel and a peck, which is one of my favorite lines from, Guys and Dolls.

Lily Newton:

Before we started recording, listeners, I told Jenna that my childhood home has a sign that says almost the exact well, it says it has the exact same quote, but it's gray instead of red, but I love that quote.

Jenna Bainbridge:

It's a very, very good one. This was a gift from my husband for Valentine's Day 1 year.

Lily Newton:

Oh, that's a great gift. I love that. And, yeah, I love any kind of theater references, so this is gonna be a really fun interview.

Jenna Bainbridge:

Oh, good. Because I'm full of them.

Lily Newton:

Oh, yeah. I'm so excited. This is when we found out you're gonna be on this podcast, I was, like, geeking out. It's it's so cool. My degree is in theater. I think theater is so cool, and you're really doing the thing. So I'm so excited. Let's let's get into the interview portion.

Lily Newton:

Erin, you wanna take us away?

Erin Hawley:

This podcast is called Everything You Know about Disability is Wrong. And you don't really want to know, what do people get wrong about you and your disability?

Jenna Bainbridge:

I think one of the big things that people get wrong about me, I am an ambulatory wheelchair user, and I think there's a lot of preconceived notions about what that means. I think when I'm using my wheelchair, there are a lot of expectations that I am a full time chair user without the ability to walk or stand. And then I think when I am walking, people assume that I either don't need my wheelchair or that, like, it's a bad thing if there's a day where I am using my wheelchair, and none of those things are true. I I use my wheelchair as I I really view my my wheelchair as, like, freedom for me. I love my wheelchair. I think my wheelchair is the coolest, and what it allows me to do is move through the world much freer. It's it's faster for me. It also means that I when I walk, I have a very pronounced limp, and I tire out very quickly.

Jenna Bainbridge:

So my wheelchair means that I can go further, and especially living in New York now, New York is a very inaccessible city and forces you to walk most places. Even if you are, you know, if you're taking a subway, chances are you are not gonna be within a few blocks of wherever your final destination is. If you are driving, the parking garages are all very far apart. There is really no street parking. So the idea of, like, getting to where you're going is being able to walk into the building doesn't exist. So my wheelchair allows me to bridge that gap between where did transit take me and then where is my final destination. So I love love love love love my wheelchair, and, also, it allows me to just feel good. If there's a day where I'm like, you know what? I don't need to spend this much energy just trying to, like, walk and deal with whatever my body's gonna be doing, I can use my wheelchair instead and just save myself the mental and physical exhaustion.

Jenna Bainbridge:

But, also, I am very active walking. I'm able to walk. I'm able to do stairs. I'm able to jump. I'm able to ski, and I think that people expect it to be more of a binary of either walking or wheeling and nothing in between, and I live 90% of my life in that gray area in between the 2.

Lily Newton:

Yeah. That gray area, I feel like, is a, like, recurring theme on this podcast where we talk about that, like, people love to classify and just, like, feel like they've checked a box of, like, I understand this identity. And because of that, I feel like, you know, disability is no one's disability is the same. Even if you have the exact same disability, your experience of it might be different. And I think that freaks people out. And, just like yeah. People have a hard time accepting that, like, this is my experience, and just because you think you understand it, it might change from day to day. That's a hard thing for people to understand.

Lily Newton:

And we've definitely talked with multiple guests about similar experiences of that, like, being pushed into a binary. And I I really like what you bring up about the, like, when you choose to use your wheelchair, it's giving you that freedom for that day, and it's just, like so you don't have to spend all of your energy. You don't have to do this. I think that there is kind of a I don't know if misconception's the right word, but this concept where, like, if you can do something, you must. Mhmm. And, yeah, like, that kind of like, well, if you can walk, why aren't you doing it all the time?

Jenna Bainbridge:

Right. And it's like that walking is the goal, and, like, it's so not the case. The goal is to feel good. The goal is to, like, have a good day and do whatever I want to be doing. The goal is not walking. The goal is to hang out with my friends. The goal is to do my job. The goal is to, you know, go to dinner.

Jenna Bainbridge:

It's not to make sure I walked as I did that.

Lily Newton:

Yes. I speak on that. I love that. That's so important because I feel like, yeah, there's this kind of, like, we don't talk enough about how a good you don't have you don't just have to accommodate yourself for the bare minimum. You can actually accommodate yourself to the point of enjoyment, to the point of pleasure. Like, it you should be able to enjoy life. And, we talked about this a bit in some of our disability pride episodes, just talking about how, like, accommodating yourself can bring about that sense of pride because you are telling your brain and your body that, like, my experience is worth it. Mhmm. It's worth it for me to have peace and comfort. Like, that's so important.

Erin Hawley:

Yeah. And, like, I don't know why society puts this big, like, emphasis on walking in general. Like, they have this I don't know if you've seen it on the on the Olympics. They have the exoskeleton that you can put on that helps you walk. And I'm just like, that seems really slow. I hear it very painful, but, like, why? Use a wheelchair. It's so much faster and easier.

Jenna Bainbridge:

And it's comfortable, and it's built for your body and for your physical needs. Like, why are we why are we so obsessed with walking when when sitting is not a bad thing? Like but we've, like I don't know. I've internal I internalized so much of it for so long as we all do. Like, in internalized ableism is a real thing. And for so long, because I can walk, I was convinced that I should not use a wheelchair except for in, like, extreme circumstances. So for most of my life, the only time I would use my wheelchair was like, I'm going to the zoo or like I'm going to the airport, like places that were so so inaccessible to me that were that involves so much walking that, like, I physically couldn't access them without my wheelchair. And it took me so long to realize, like, that that same mindset of, oh, I access this better from my wheelchair. I can use every day of my life.

Jenna Bainbridge:

It doesn't have to just be extreme circumstances. I don't have to keep doing this painful thing of, you know, the exoskeleton of forcing myself to walk, when I could just sit down and wheel and end up going to the same place and doing the same thing, but easier.

Lily Newton:

Yes. I love that I don't have to force myself. I think that idea crosses over into, like, so many different aspects of disability. I think from, like, a neurological disability standpoint, we talk about, like, in any in the many different categories under neurodiversity. We talk about masking a lot, and it's a kind of a similar concept of that, like, you know, as a high masking person, I can get through a day without my stim stuff. I can force myself to make a lot of eye contact. I can practice, like, scripts of what I'm going to say, but it's exhausting. It's really, really exhausting to try to pretend like this part of me doesn't exist, and I think that you saying all that was the first time I've kind of thought about for ambulatory wheelchair users.

Lily Newton:

There is that kind of, pressure to mask as, like Mhmm. I don't need it unless I really, need it.

Jenna Bainbridge:

Right. And it's it's interesting because I feel like it's masking both ways. Like, if I if I'm walking, I am masking as, like, I don't need accommodation, which is still untrue, but I think that's how people view me of, like, oh, great. You're walking, so you're able to do this. We don't need to do anything for you. Our physical structure is fine. We don't need to change anything. It's masking in that way.

Jenna Bainbridge:

It's being, like, easy to digest disability. But on the other hand, I am an anomaly. People stare at me as I'm walking, and they are confused about, like, trying to label me as something. Whereas as soon as I start using a device, whether that's my wheelchair or my cane or my crutches, I can see it in people that are suddenly more comfortable with me because they can label me as, oh, you're disabled, And it's it's such an interesting thing that, like, depending on what I have the energy for when it comes to interacting with with strangers on the street, Sometimes I choose walking or using a cane or using my wheelchair because, like, of just the way that people react to me, and that's exhausting too. I don't wanna have to be thinking about, like, alright. When I when I get to the restaurant, is it gonna have to be a whole conversation where suddenly, like, whoever's seating me is gonna be like, oh, like, what what happened to you? I don't wanna have to have that conversation. I don't want to shut that down. And if I'm walking, that is the conversation every time.

Jenna Bainbridge:

If I'm using my wheelchair, that's the conversation some of the time. And it's it's an interesting thing to have to, like, balance that in addition to my physical needs for the day.

Lily Newton:

Sometimes, a great example of, like, the mental load of ableism. What were you gonna say, Erin?

Erin Hawley:

Mhmm. Yeah. I totally understand that. I'm not ambulatory, but, like, sometimes I just, like, I don't feel like dealing with scaring and comments. So I'm just gonna stay home. Mhmm. But which, you know, I was getting home anyway, so it's not a big deal to me. But there definitely is, like, the emotional toll of being disabled and public.

Lily Newton:

Yeah. And that, like, extra steps in, like, day planning, taking into account the way people are going to react to our like, just parts of us. Like, it's very yeah. It's just one of those hidden, like, energy taxes that people don't realize.

Jenna Bainbridge:

Yeah. It's like it's like subs it's subtract 2 spoons every time you have to have a conversation about it. Yes. Absolutely. I just wanna be dealing with my physical spoons of, like, what do I actually need for my day? And now you keep adding on all of these, like, dealing with other people. And that does. It makes you wanna, like, stay home sometimes. It makes you wanna, like, only see the people who you already know.

Jenna Bainbridge:

Like, it's it's so frustrating.

Lily Newton:

Absolutely. Backing up a little bit, I love in your initial answer, you brought up that you love your wheelchair and that it represents freedom to you. This is something we talk about a lot. I want to read a little part of, this is a write up for when you were in Rodgers and Hammerstein's Cinderella, and this is what it says. It says, growing up as a passionate Disney princess fan, Bainbridge find loves finding nug quote, finding nuggets of disability that you don't expect in her characters. Quote, one of my favorites is Cinderella's in my own little corner lyrics. In my own little corner, in my own little chair, I can be whatever I want to be. My wheelchair represents freedom and the ability to move through the world so much easier, and that song exemplifies that. I was just so I just loved that you said that and wanted to bring that into this interview. I'm so glad you already brought this idea into the interview because thanks to language like wheelchair bound and confined to a wheelchair, wheelchairs are just often viewed as this, like, limiting, awful thing. And, honestly, through being friends with Aaron, I have completely changed my view as a non wheelchair user of, like, wait. Wheelchairs are awesome. Like, they're so great, and they I always think about, Erin, you telling the story of you, like, being a little 3 year old zipping around, being able to get your chores done quickly because your chair was fast. And, like, it's that's the type of thing you don't see. So, I just love that you already brought that up. And, you know, I the question I was gonna ask with this quote was, like, what is your relationship with your chair like? But you've covered that a little bit. So I guess I'd wanna know, what would you say to someone who is just beginning to use mobility aids and is really concerned about that stigma of the, like, confined to?

Jenna Bainbridge:

Yeah. I very strongly believe that if every single person who could benefit from using a mobility aid used it, the whole entire world would be better, right, for so many reasons. Like, the the big one being that if everyone actually got the access that they deserve and and the mobility needs that they the any tool that they could benefit from, it's gonna make everybody happier. Right? Because they're actually getting to access the world the way that they need to, and the way that's going to cause them less, whether that's less pain, less energy, like, whatever it may be. Everyone's gonna be happier, and it will normalize mobility tools for everybody. My favorite example of this is glasses. We have just, as a society, completely normalized glasses, and mobility like, glasses are, at their very core, an assisted device. Right? Without glasses, people are not gonna be able to interact with the world in the same way that they do. Right? So but we as a society have just been like, yep. Glasses, normal. Great. Blanket statement. People wear glasses, and that's the accommodation that they need, and this is just part of life. And if we did that with every single assisted device, then suddenly, things like making sure that buildings are wheelchair accessible or making sure that, you know, you've got, like, t coils in every single space. Right? When you go to a museum, t coils are just available, like, easily. Like, all of these things would become so normalized that we wouldn't even think about it as being disability.

Jenna Bainbridge:

It's just human existence. And I especially think about that with, like, Capitol Hill and how many people there, I think, really could benefit from using assist devices. Like, I just think the whole world would be better because everyone would be thinking about disability as an inevitability and disability as something that every single human experiences, whether directly or the people around them, at some point in their life. And I want everybody to have to not be scared of that, to just normalize that.

Lily Newton:

Yeah. Absolutely. And that, like, bringing everyone in kind of goes with what we were saying of that, like, changing the worldview of, like, you don't have to force yourself to endure things. It doesn't make you a better person. And, like, I think there are so many like, I have, like, chronic joint pain, so I use a lot of, like, compression sleeves and, like, I wear a lot of knee braces. And for a long time, I would always wear, like, long skirts if I was wearing my knee brace because I was just, like, embarrassed because internalized ableism. And I very recently started when I'm, like, doing comedy on stage where, like, actively trying to wear shorts when I'm wearing those and not bringing it up, just being like, this is normal. And it is wild how many people are like, yeah. My knees are in pain all the time, but I just don't Mhmm. I don't think about fixing it. Or, oh, yeah. My back hurts every single day. And it's like, why do we live in a world that's just telling you to accept that? There's things we can we live in 2024. There's really cool stuff out there that could help.

Jenna Bainbridge:

Why have we normalized pain instead of normalizing access? Like, this is this is unhinged.

Lily Newton:

Yeah. That that's a that's a sound bite right there, Jenna. Why have we normalized pain instead of access? That is such a good point. And, yeah, I think this has just been a amazing start to this interview because it's what you know, our whole thesis of, like, this whole podcast that a big part of the everything you know about disability is wrong is that, like, most people don't accept or admit to themselves that, like, disability is inevitable. Disability is natural. It's actually, like Mhmm. Humanity.

Jenna Bainbridge:

Yeah. Yeah. I it's interesting. I've noticed all of these, like, euphemisms about disability that I hadn't seen before. And one of them was there was a a housing development that I saw recently that, they had all of this language about, like, built for aging in place. And I was, like, this is just a euphemism for disability. You are you are selling me on this idea of, like, don't you wanna be able to stay in your house, you know, buy your house now and you can stay here all the way through retirement, all the way through old age, and, like, what you're saying is through disability. But we're not gonna it's such an interesting thing that people don't wanna name it for what it is, and they're calling it all of these weird euphemisms when, like, when we if we were to just say the word and normalize the word and normalize the experience then, it would benefit every single human on this planet because it is part of life.

Erin Hawley:

Absolutely. Yeah. Like, the veganism is for disability get, like, more ridiculous every year, I feel like, differently abled. Don't diss my ability. Yeah.

Lily Newton:

Yeah. So gross. And I feel like you know, the aging in place is such a good example that we don't really think of as, like, one of those euphemisms. And same thing with, like I feel like the world is becoming more accepting in the last, like, decade even of, like, mental health. Mhmm. But mental health language has become okay, But, like, referring to these things as psychiatric disabilities are is, like, people get really up in arms. And for for me, I was before my autism diagnosis, I was very in the thick of the mental health community because, shocker, when you have undiagnosed autism, you usually have a lot of mental health problems. And, in the mental health world, there was this underlying, like, language of, like, beat this, overcome this. Mhmm. And then as soon as I entered disability world and met amazing disabled people and kind of became immersed in disability culture, it was like, oh, I don't need to beat anything. I need to accommodate myself. And, like, mental health days that work is giving out, those are disability accommodations, actually. Yes. And they're important. Yes.

Jenna Bainbridge:

And just all of that language of, like, beat this. Like, why? Like, why is that the language? Why not just accept this? Like, meet yourself like, wherever you are today, just meeting yourself at that place is actually the accommodation. And we're we're so obsessed, like, well, one day you won't need to do that. Like, but what if I do? That's not a bad thing.

Lily Newton:

Yeah. Yes to everything said so far, and I I just yeah. I really hope that this the trend of, like, accommodating yourself just starts to become more normal. And, yeah, if you're listening and you have considered using something to accommodate yourself but didn't want to, maybe this is your catalyst to do it.

Jenna Bainbridge:

Do it. And, like, every single time that we make an accommodation for ourselves, it shows somebody else that they can make an accommodation too. So every single time that another person starts doing that, it normalizes it for the future. Like, it's the best thing that we can do, not only for ourselves, but for every single person around us.

Lily Newton:

Absolutely. Wow. What a great section 1 of this interview. That was amazing, and I feel like it really, yeah, just agree with everything. I'm so excited for someone to hear that who really needed to. Let's dive in. Nope. What were you gonna say?

Jenna Bainbridge:

Oh, no. I just I hope that if if somebody needed to hear today, like, it's okay. Put on a put on a knee brace. It's okay. Like, ask your doctor for a for a script for a wheelchair. Like, do it. Do it. If you think you need it, you need it.

Erin Hawley:

I also wanna say if my father is listening to this podcast, please get hearing aids. Please. Please. He's like, no. I'm like, you can't hear anything, and it'll change your life.

Lily Newton:

Man, that could be a whole episode, Erin, talking about the ways that masculinity and, like, capitalism's individuality have, like, set back accommodating yourself and accessibility because there's this I I do think that that there's a lot in masculinity that could be unpacked that is probably rooted in ableism. But. Oh, yes. Well, let some some men deal with that. We but you should work through that, men. Right.

Jenna Bainbridge:

Men, please, please work through this. But, also, like, the way that that datability and ableism are are intertwined is also just a a fascinating and gross, like, subculture. Like, I remember my physical therapist when I was in I think I was in, like, middle school, and my physical therapist was like, don't you wanna be able to to walk normally when you enter high school? And when you when you wanna start dating? Don't you wanna be able to, like, walk normally? And what that ingrained in me was, like, oh, no. If I still have a limp, which, by the way, I am always going to have. That was never that was never actually on the table to, like, physical therapy my way out of a limp. That's just I have a spinal cord injury. This is what it is. And what it ingrained in me though was, like, oh, no.

Jenna Bainbridge:

I am unlovable if I am still presenting presenting as disabled. Right? I would always have a disability, but it was this idea of, like, if I can just mask it enough, then I will be worthy of love. And, like, all of these ideas getting intertwined, whether it's, like, I'm not a man if I use hearing aids, or I'm unworthy of love if I put on a knee brace. It it just means that people learn to not like themselves and to not to think that the people around them won't like them either, and none of that is true.

Lily Newton:

Absolutely. I I'm glad you brought up that, like, the through line there because it is it's all intersectional, and we see how ableism plays into so many other issues at hand. Just great points all around.

Erin Hawley:

In our first season of the podcast, we had a the main theme of all the episodes was dating and relationships. So if you're listening to this right now, go back to our first season and check it out because there's really great conversations there.

Lily Newton:

Yeah. And there's some really, like, enlightening stuff about those, exactly what Jenna was talking about, that kind of, like, these weird things that people who think they're helping us say that then get ingrained to mean I am not worthy or I am not lovable, which is really devastating. And I I do hope we it goes into the when you accommodate yourself, you, like, are teaching others that it's worth it to accommodate yourself and, fight back against those voices, whether real people or in your head saying that you shouldn't take care of yourself because it'll make you less of something, which I disagree with wholeheartedly. I think the more you take care of yourself, the more you can be you.

Jenna Bainbridge:

Yes. And the more you take like, taking care of yourself is a form of self love and self care. And the more that you love yourself, the more of it other people are able to love you, and you are able to love other people.

Lily Newton:

Absolutely. Absolutely. I love that. It's so important. We could talk about this for I could just stay on this topic the entire interview, but I want to get into some of, you know, the cool stuff that you do. For so I'm trying to decide which questions I wanna ask because I think we could talk for a long time. I would I have a question specifically related to Suffs, which, listeners, if you don't know about this musical, you you gotta learn about it. It's so cool. Suffs is the story about the women activists who fought for the right for women to vote. And it's honestly a story that, like, feels weird that I didn't learn in school. Like, when I was, you know, doing research for this interview, there's, like, names of characters and stuff that I'm like, why do I know, like,

Erin Hawley:

I should know who this is.

Lily Newton:

Don't know these people. Like, why do I know all these men when I don't know these people? It was less than a 100 years ago, and I'm interested in how being in this musical and learning about these women's stories, has that furthered your goals at all as a disability advocate, like being around these stories of activism or, just interested in how, like, the the story of the musical is influencing your work?

Jenna Bainbridge:

Yeah. It's it's interesting because I I've always been a pretty passionate activist, in my own way, in my own world, in my own relationships, And Suff's is really about it it shows so many of those through lines of of how when you work with like minded people, how much can be accomplished. And, you know, you you bring up that we're not taught this story in school. We don't we don't know the names of Alice Paul or Inez Mulholland or Carrie Chapman Catt. Like, these are not names. In fact, one of the the big name drops we have in Suffs is Susan b Anthony. But what we and, you know, most of us learned who Susan b Anthony was, but Suff's takes place a full generation later. Like, we talk about Susan b Anthony, and she is already long dead by the time that we are we are really diving into the story and stuff.

Jenna Bainbridge:

But when Susan b Anthony was advocating for the right to vote, it was it was a kind of history that people want to put in the books. Right? It was like, oh, this was peaceful, and we had these conventions, and then we got the right to vote, and that's not the reality. The reality was there was protest. There was violent protest. There was, women were jailed and, went on hunger strikes, and these are parts of history that, you know, it doesn't make the US government look great, and so, therefore, it doesn't get written down into the history books. We have so much power when we protest. We have so much power when we come together in groups with like minded individuals, and that's really what this short what this story focuses on is there are always going to be people who you can team up with to accomplish great things, and there are things that you can do alone. And a a true movement really needs all of those things. Working with your friends, sending a letter to a single person can have a huge impact. You know, just protesting in the street silently, which you have every right to do, is deeply impactful, and, stuff really shows a lot of those those tactics in a beautiful, beautiful way. And what it has meant for me is it has reminded me that any method has impact. You don't have to necessarily go to the protest if you don't have the energy for that. That's okay. If you need to access it by, you know, just sending an email to your lawmakers, that has impact. If you need to access it by, you know, retweeting it to tell other people this is happening. That has an impact.

Jenna Bainbridge:

All of these things matter. And it's what I've I really loved about Suffs is is showing every tactic is important. And, also, one of the beautiful through lines in Suffs is that self care is also important. There is a time where it is actually it is okay. Protect yourself. You don't need to give everything to these to these moments because if you give all of yourself, you don't have anything left. So take the breaks when you need them. Listen to your body.

Jenna Bainbridge:

Listen to your heart. Listen to your soul, and rest is as important as the work.

Lily Newton:

Absolutely. And that, you know, doing anything is important, but you gotta do something. Send that email. Hit retweet. Whatever it is, if you can just get yourself to do something, you can make a difference. I think, yeah, that's it's really poignant, talking about all of that with in the lens of, like, disability history because disability history as well just doesn't really get taught in schools. And, I often think about, like, Judy Heumann and the 504 sit ins. And, you know, those are exactly what you're saying.

Lily Newton:

They're messy. They're not like this beautiful, peaceful thing that happened. This they were messy and showed a lot of issues within our government, and so we don't really learn about it. And, you know, I think that there's probably some ableist viewpoints that make people worried, like, well, if these people can do it, anyone can. And, like, while I don't while I don't condone that kind of narrative, I do condone that, like, yeah, we can all gather, especially in 2024 with the Internet. With while I wish the Internet was available to everyone, I acknowledge that it's not. But there's some kind of organizing you can get into if you, are freaking out access. And there's always something that can be done, even if it's just figuring out some history that you didn't know about, going and seeing stuffs and talking to your friends about what you learned and how that you know, having the conversation we're having right now of, like, how has the history of these women inspired us today and what we can do?

Jenna Bainbridge:

Right. And it also just proves, like, just because you don't see yourself in the history, doesn't mean you weren't there. Because simply by by proof of the fact that we didn't learn the history of these suffragists, it didn't mean it didn't happen. And, you know, Shaina Taub, our incredible writer and star of stuffs, she and I had a conversation about she looked so hard to try and find disabled American suffragists, that we could name in in the show, and there's just not a lot of history. There's not a lot of there's not a lot of evidence of who was there, but we know they were. And so by by sheer fact that I am on that stage, it shows people, like, we might not know the name of of the people who protested who maybe use mobility devices, but they were definitely there. People with disabilities were part of this movement. People with disabilities have been a part of every single movement.

Jenna Bainbridge:

So just because you can't see yourself in the history, know that you were there, and also know that you can be a part of the next movement.

Lily Newton:

Claps for that. That's really good. That's really good, Jenna. That's just really good.

Erin Hawley:

Thank you.

Lily Newton:

And, like, we talk a lot on this podcast about inspiration porn and, you know, becoming an inspire inspiration as a disabled person. And, like, we recently had the conversation of, kind of reframing that as, like, inspiring other disabled people. Like, if we keep it within the community, it it starts to feel good. Yes. And I feel like that this is a good conversation within that of that, like, the inspiration is to accommodate yourself, be inspired to accommodate yourself. The inspiration is to get involved even if you didn't think that someone like you could be involved.

Jenna Bainbridge:

Mhmm. And outside of the community too. Like, I'm okay if if I inspired you to rethink what disability is, then I'm fine being your inspiration. If my presence on that stage as a dancer made you realize that people with disabilities are fierce athletes, then I'm okay to have inspired you. I am not okay to have inspired you. If your takeaway from me dancing on stage is, well, I guess I can't complain about my life, then I did not inspire you.

Erin Hawley:

Yeah. That's a great way to put that. She said, yeah. I don't I can inspire you, but not just for existing. Like, do you know what I mean? Like, I I if I, you know, if I publish a book or if I do something worth, you know, admiring, that's fine. But it's your whole idea of, oh, you've been outside your house. How inspiring. Like Oh my gosh. You existed in the world even though I am ableist and didn't expect to see you here.

Jenna Bainbridge:

It's not inspiring.

Lily Newton:

Yeah. It's such a good follow-up question though. They like, if someone's saying, like, they're inspired, like, inspired to do what? Like, what what is the like, I've never really thought about that. Like, in the definition of inspiration, they're like, okay. Inspire if I'm inspiring you, it means I'm, like, motivating you to do something or change. I've changed, like, whether that, something is a change of thought. But, like, yeah, that's a great way to combat that kind of you know, if you get told that, like, oh, wow. You're so inspiring. Oh, what have I inspired you to do?

Jenna Bainbridge:

Yeah. Oh, did I inspire you to call your lawmakers to make sure that all of the the buildings in this area are accessible to me? That's great. Thank you. I'm so glad you're gonna call tomorrow. Did I inspire you to, suddenly not be so able as I inspire you to watch the Paralympics as much as you're watching the Olympics, great. I'm glad I inspired you.

Lily Newton:

I love that. That's awesome. And this this is so good. I'm gonna keep that in my head because that's a great it's so good when you think when you can come up with the, like, oh, this is gonna be my response to that. It's gonna shake them up.

Jenna Bainbridge:

Yeah. I just I always love whenever people say something that, like, hits me weird, I always follow it up with a question of, like, why? How? Because it makes it turns it back to them. Like, if it hit me in that way, I need you to talk through what you think you're saying to me, and maybe, just maybe, it'll make you realize that what you've said was harmful.

Lily Newton:

I saw something. I wish I remembered who posted it, but I saw something online the other day of, you know, when someone asks, like, what happened to you? Responding to that with, like, wow. It seems really important for you to know that. Like, like, that kind of almost like the gentle parenting approach. Like, oh, why is that so important to you? Like that. And so I I really like I really like that kind of investigating, staying curious, but really being like, alright. Let's have you point out your own ableism here.

Jenna Bainbridge:

Yeah. Let's talk through what you just said without me having to spend any energy on this.

Lily Newton:

Well, I we have a lot of stuff I wanna ask about still. I don't know if we'll get to it all, but one thing that, you know, kind of along the lines of inspiration I wanted to bring up, you and Ali Stroker are historic names in terms of disability representation on Broadway. You're these the firsts. And, for listeners who don't know, Ali won a Tony in, not a new musical. Wheelchair user. I I always hesitate to just say disability, be a wheelchair user. I I always hesitate to just say disability because a lot of people have disabilities that they don't disclose. But

Jenna Bainbridge:

And there are lots of other types of disabilities that have been present in shows. Absolutely.

Erin Hawley:

Yes.

Jenna Bainbridge:

But what in new musicals, it's it's very rare.

Lily Newton:

Very rare. And so I wonder, like, what is that like, and does the historic nature of your role in stuffs kind of add pressure or excitement? Like, how does that feel for you?

Jenna Bainbridge:

I mean, the thing that was most exciting to me when I was cast in SUFFs is, historically in new musicals, future productions tend to, like, they tend to look back to the original for future casting, and that happens on Broadway. That happens for regional productions. You know, when you think of a show, you tend to picture the original cast members. And so simply by nature of me existing in this show, what it means is that every future production of it will automatically have an example of including people with disabilities in the show, and that hasn't happened. That has not been the case previously. So what I was most excited by was thinking about if, you know, this this if Suss has ever performed in high school, that there is a part written into this show that is canonically disabled, and people can look to it and say, like, oh, great. There is a role for people with disabilities in this show. And because my role doesn't specify disability, it it means that anybody can play this part. Anybody with a disability can feel represented in this show, And that was that was just so exciting to me to think that, you know, perhaps like, obviously, I don't I'm not in casting. I don't know what the future is, but I do feel that in the in future productions, there is at least a precedent that has been set, and, hopefully, it means that there is that there is the possibility of future people with this of future productions casting people with disabilities. And I also know that there is a fully wheelchair accessible track on Broadway. No matter what happens, my part is fully wheelchair accessible, and it has been blocked that way, and it will continue to be performed that way regardless of if anybody else has a disability in that track. It was built to be accessible.

Lily Newton:

That's gotta feel good.

Jenna Bainbridge:

It does. It feels it feels really good. I feel like I've at least laid down a path. Even just knowing that that path is there means a lot to me.

Lily Newton:

Yeah. Absolutely. And, you know, in in your initial, like, information to us about this podcast, I love that you meant you put in it that, like, I am equal parts a theater maker and an advocate. Like, these are equal parts to me, and I'm happy to talk about either. And it's so cool that with this path you've created, you've truly embodied, like, both aspects of those two parts of you that are really important to you, and so other people can follow suit. I think that's so important because there's sometimes when glass ceilings get broken, it can feel like a box has been checked. Like, okay. Cool.

Lily Newton:

We've seen this representation. Now we don't have to worry about it. And I love what you said that's like, no. No. No. This is actually opening like a, okay. Now if you do this show without disability, you're missing something that was in the original production. It's crucial to the story. I think that's really, really important. And I think, yeah, just accessibility on Broadway is super important. Erin, do you wanna, dig into consultability? Because I know we wanna talk about that in this hour.

Erin Hawley:

Yeah. So you cofounded Consultability. And can you tell us a little bit about what that is and why you started it?

Jenna Bainbridge:

Yeah. So, Consultability is the consulting company that my husband and I founded, and it's the reason that we started it was I am a disabled actor. My husband, is nondisabled, but has worked we met working at Family Theater Company, which is a theater company in Denver that hires exclusively actors with disabilities. At the time, he was the stage manager. He later became the production manager, And we would get questions all the time from people being like, oh, hey. We we want to hire somebody with a disability, but we don't know if it will be accessible for them. You know, can you can you come take a look? And and we would just get these questions all the time of, like, how do we make things accessible? And we realized, like, we should like, there there isn't a place. There aren't very many places where you can go and ask those questions and especially when it comes to theater because something that a lot of people don't realize is that the ADA doesn't protect most backstage spaces because they are not public facing spaces. And so theaters are not necessarily required to have accessible backstage spaces. And in addition to that, there is most theaters in our country were built before the passing of the ADA, and in a lot of cases theaters are really surviving because they have, like, historical landmark status, and when you have historical landmark status it's very very difficult to actually become ADA compliant and still maintain your historical landmark status. So there are there are a lot of nuances to it, and so what Paul and I do is we come into theaters and we show them how they can become accessible, not necessarily ADA compliant. These are different words, but we go in and say, here are some ways that you can make your theater accessible in the short term for maybe not a lot of money, and in the long term with funding and renovation, because I think a lot of times people think, well, if we can't become fully ADA compliant accessible right now, then we shouldn't do this at all. And they become scared of what questions are we asking and are we going to offend somebody if we ask these questions, and what we do is we have that space open so that people can ask whatever questions they have and can get a sense of here's what you can do in the short term to open this door, and here's what you can do in the long term to make sure the door stays open. So we do that through assessments of spaces where we physically walk through the buildings and tell them, you know, here are some of the the physical barriers you have to access, as well as through anti ableism trainings, because it is much more about the mindset of of wanting to maintain accessibility than it is actually about making a building accessible because we've all seen it. We're like, yes. This building is wheelchair accessible, but the wheelchair access is also where the trash gets left during the day. Right? That's a mindset problem. That is that people don't value that the building is accessible and have made it where the trash gets picked up. Whereas having true access would be everybody now uses this accessible entrance, and it is integrated as part of the building and part of the experience, and that comes down to mindset. So we really try to tackle it from both angles. So we do presentations, we do workshops, and we do space assessments to try and have a holistic approach to making something accessible. And because we've both been working in theater and specifically disabled theater for our entire careers, we're also able to address it in ways that are specific to the arts, because theater is a strange mechanism. And, you know, it's funny when, like, corporations come in and they're like, oh, why is theater functioning this way? And you're like, I really I can't explain it. It's just how it is. And if you don't work within that mechanism, it's hard to figure it out. So we've got, you know, years of experience working in theater and from different aspects. I'm primarily on stage. He's been primarily backstage. And so together, we really feel that, we're able to answer any question about how do we make this accessible. And it's it's been really it's been a blast. We've we've really only been around for 2 years, but, it's been a really wonderful whirlwind for those 2 years.

Lily Newton:

That's awesome, and I think great for the way you tackle it from both sides.

Erin Hawley:

Totally. And do you find that most theater, like, owners or whatever they're called,

Lily Newton:

Are they, like, very open to it?

Erin Hawley:

Has there been any any pushback? Anything like that?

Jenna Bainbridge:

Because we're still pretty new, we have primarily worked with companies that have sought us out, who are interested in this kind of work, because we are we are still small. We don't have the capacity to be reaching out to theaters directly yet. So every time that we have worked with a company, it has been very positive, but I also know that that is partly because of the sample size we have. So, you know, one of the big things that we do get pushback on is cost that people say, like, oh, well, we really want to do this, but we can't afford it. And what we've really tried to instill in people is that cost is just something that you can budget in. What you're saying, if you're saying we can't afford this, is you do not value disabled work, disabled patrons, disabled dollars. You know, capitalism is is all a big made up mindset, and it's all about where you place value. So if you're saying you can't afford to make your building ADA compliant, what you're saying is you do not value the, what, 20 some odd percent of the population that would benefit from those accommodations, from those changes.

Jenna Bainbridge:

And this is just about budgeting that in to make something accessible. Disabled dollars talk, and I think historically people think that they don't. Disabled dollars are consistently undervalued as we have seen in just the fact that, you know, people with disabilities can legally be paid below minimum wage in many states. So it's about rethinking that mindset to think disability is a vital part of our community, and disabled people deserve to have all the same experiences. And if that means it costs you a little bit more money upfront, why is that a bad thing? It just means that you are putting that money into making sure a community feels valued.

Lily Newton:

Exactly. And, you know, I'd almost argue that places can't afford not to focus on accessibility. This and I think that business owners, and employers in general have to realize that, like, this is one area where you cannot see the potential of the, like, patrons who would utilize these entrances or these accessibility features until you do it, but it ex this population exists, but, like Mhmm.

Erin Hawley:

You know, it's not self addressed.

Jenna Bainbridge:

They will come. Yes. And, like, I think that if you were to tell a business, you know, 20%, that's a massive number Yeah. To be like, oh, hey, you are alienating 20% of your potential customers.

Lily Newton:

Yeah.

Jenna Bainbridge:

But I think people don't view it that way. Right? People are viewing it as, like, oh, I'm only alienating wheelchair users, or I'm Right. Only alienating blind people. It's, like, No. We are a whole community, and if we are in solidarity with each other, you are alienating all of us.

Lily Newton:

Yeah. And it shows how many people you think or how many people really think that, like, that, you know, less than 80% of the population is 100% of the population and that there just, like, happens to be these other people. But, yeah, I think that and I I I don't have the the data here, but I I know in my heart that it exists, that, like, there are places that have done these renovations and seen the impact on, like, the ROI on it that, like, you're gonna your cuss when you can appeal to thousands more people, it's it's gonna be a good thing for your business. Yeah.

Jenna Bainbridge:

I wanna know what those numbers are. Like, I I wonder if somebody has actually done that research because I am sure that the numbers speak for themselves. Like, because we've all seen it just from, like, word-of-mouth of when you hear something is a wonderful experience for your particular access needs, you flock to it. And I think that that, you know, even if it's just the our word-of-mouth experience, like, we know this is the case. And I think businesses need to realize, like, how valuable that is.

Lily Newton:

Absolutely. I completely agree. And, you know, October is National Disability Employment Awareness Month. So we always talk about, you know, what inclusive employment really looks like. And I think that a good way to make businesses more accommodating and accessible is to hire disabled people on your behind the scenes work. It's it's it's disabled people that are gonna say, hey. We say we don't have budget for this, but I think we do. Like, I think we can this is important, and I have this whole group people who would come do things.

Lily Newton:

Like, we gotta work together, and I do think that inclusive hiring practices, you know, in every aspect of life can bring about more inclusive spaces. We are very nearly out of time. You know, we often we end this podcast usually talking about Easterseal's main pillars, which are community education, employment, transportation, and health. And I want to bring up you brought up the Family Theater Company. I think we'll only have time to get to one of these, so I wanna talk about the community aspect of theater because I think it's really beautiful. For for many people and in my experience, theater was that first place that I ever felt like real community of, like, working with people who might annoy me or they don't like me, but we're working together to do something. And, ultimately, we're in a theater company together, so we're gonna take care of each other. What do you think people can learn about community and mutual support through theater?

Jenna Bainbridge:

Theater is teamwork at the end of the day. You know, I don't think people realize how much time you spend with each other if you do theater. So for stuffs, we have 8 shows a week. The only day I am not in the theater is Monday. In addition to those 8 shows a week, I'm understudying. So I'm there for 2 rehearsals a week on top of the 8 shows. I am always at the theater. So the people that you work with become your family, and you get really, really close to people really, really fast because oftentimes you're also in most most theater productions, you're there for between, you know, 6 10 weeks.

Jenna Bainbridge:

Like, these are these are quick turnarounds. You know, Suffs is a is a different beast. Broadway, it just keeps going. So I've been doing this since February. But before that, I've been a part of Suffs for 3 years. So a lot of these people, I've known for years years at this point. And I think that what I love about that is that with each day, you get to know people better and you learn more about them. And when you have a really diverse group of people, you start to learn about people's individual experiences, and it makes you a better person, a better more rounded person, a more educated person, a more compassionate person, because it's not necessarily people that you would meet on your own. When you're doing theater, you're put together with people who you've I didn't know a single person my first stops workshop. I was flown in from Denver and didn't know anybody else there, and now I would consider everybody to be among my my closest friends, and that happens fast. I think that theater becomes a really beautiful community, and what I love about it is, you know, a lot of these really close relationships I've made in past shows, I'll still get calls from friends. You know, I just I had a a phone call with a friend the other day who I did a show with 5 years ago, and she called me because she was working someplace new, and she pointed out something that was inaccessible. And she's non disabled, has no experience with disability other than, like, being my friend, and she pointed out something that was inaccessible, and they fixed it. Right? So, like, every single person that you meet carries that that experience, that knowledge to wherever they go next. In theater, that is constant turnover. You're working with someone for a few weeks at a time, and then they go everywhere. So it's this really tiny community where everybody knows each other to some extent, but, also, you don't know anybody. So it's it every single person that you meet, every single time you are impacted, that has a ripple effect that carries on forever and ever and ever. And so if you can be that person who speaks truth, who acknowledges injustice, you are making every single place you work better, not just for yourself, but for any future person who comes across it. And I I love that about theater, that you can directly see those ripples everywhere you turn.

Lily Newton:

That is so beautiful, and I think it just wraps up this interview really nicely because it goes back to what we're talking about at the start of this that, like, a part of being in community with others is accommodating yourself and showing that you accommodating yourself in front of people, especially, you know, in, like, a theater setting where you're meeting new people all the time, you're changing people's worldviews. And, you know, I think it's very important to have highly visible disabled people in communities where and then, you know, that like you said, the ripple effect of showing that, like, well, someone I'm in community with needs this access, so I'm gonna speak on it. And I I you know, you dream of the perfect world where people are advocating for people they don't know, but that's we know the reality. People, advocate for their community members, so it's it's important. And, the work you're doing is incredible, changing Broadway. I hope, listeners that you've found this interview as beautiful as I have. It's been a lot of fun. Jenna, thank you so much for coming on the show.

Jenna Bainbridge:

Yeah. Thank you all for having me. I really appreciate it.

Erin Hawley:

It was amazing. I really appreciate everything that you said is, like, incredible, so we appreciate it.

Lily Newton:

Yeah. It's always the interviews that you like, I leave being like, wow. I feel so good to be me and, like, to care about myself. Like, that's so good, and, this interview has definitely done that. So, listeners, again, hope you enjoyed it as much as we did. Jenna, thank you for being here, and we will see you next time for another episode of everything you know about disability is wrong.

Erin Hawley:

If you like what you heard, go ahead and subscribe and leave us a review wherever you get your podcasts.

Lily Newton:

Thank you to our listeners. And as always, thank you to Easterseals for giving us the space to share such authentic conversations from within the disability community to our listeners.

Erin Hawley:

And I'll see you next time for another episode of everything you know about disability is wrong.

Lily Newton:

This is a podcast brought to you by Easterseals.

Erin Hawley:

You know, we actually work through Easterseals, but maybe our listeners don't know what we do.

Lily Newton:

That's true. Easterseals is leading the way to full access, equity, and inclusion for disabled people and their families.

Erin Hawley:

And did you know we've been doing this for more than a century?

Lily Newton:

This includes helping disabled people find meaningful employment and addressing health care needs for all ages.

Erin Hawley:

We're proud to serve communities across the country and ready for the next 100 years. For more, check out easterseals.com. 

Lily Newton (commercial segment): 

This is a podcast brought to you by Easterseals. 

Erin Hawley(commercial segment): 

You know, we actually work for Easterseals, but maybe our listeners don't know what we do. 

Lily Newton(commercial segment): 

That's true. Easterseals is leading the way to full access, equity, and inclusion for disabled people and their families. 

Erin Hawley(commercial segment): 

And did you know we've been doing this for more than a century? 

Lily Newton(commercial segment): 

This includes helping disabled people find meaningful employment and addressing health care needs for all ages.

Erin Hawley(commercial segment):

We're proud to serve communities across the country and ready for the next 100 years. For more, check out easterseals.com.